Why don't you believe in God?

[Luka Petrovic]

I just wanted to hear your guys thoughts on the common question atheists give to religious people. "Why are your prayers answered for the little things in your life, meanwhile people don't get food or water in Africa." Or "Why to you get your "daily bread" but kids in Africa don't." Anyone backing this question up ( I sure do!), anyone have any theological or philosophical ( ooops I almost typed factual) support support or counter claims?

[Nabz]

I just wanted to hear your guys thoughts on the common question atheists give to religious people. "Why are your prayers answered for the little things in your life, meanwhile people don't get food or water in Africa." Or "Why to you get your "daily bread" but kids in Africa don't." Anyone backing this question up ( I sure do!), anyone have any theological or philosophical ( ooops I almost typed factual) support support or counter claims?

This is a very interesting question, yet very easy to spot on, but may become very difficult to answer. My parents are religious and i often have short term debates with my parents to the extent that they say i've become atheist, however, often they're able to give me an answer which satisfies me. I've discussed with my parents, ages ago, on this, so i don't remember much but one thing that comes to mind is this:

Religious people, who go through suffering, often consider it as part of their "exam". They think that "since" the world, the universe is so well organized (i don't know where the whole concept of 2nd law of thermodynamics comes in lol), then there much be a proper system which governs this, so if people are doing these "exams", they must achieve their "results", somewhere else once they're done here. Not everyone lives a luxurious life. Even people, who are living a luxurious life, miss something. It can be either love, knowledge, whatever...so now we have come to the point where we say, ok, someone can't have "everything" in this world.

Now back to your question that why people starve to death. My parents say that it is part of their "exam" because everyone is tested differently. If you're given food, then you're being "tested" whether you share it with the ones who don't. There comes my exam, to share the food with ones who don't have it.

Problem is that our world is governed by a bunch of "people", who do not know how to govern. You see these areas with famine, drought, people dying because of lack of food, water etc. This doesn't have to do with God at all. People are using "God" as a scapegoat. It is because our systems are flawed. We produce enough food to feed everyone in this world but since disparities exist, someone suffers because of us. You can't say that "God doesn't exist because there are people in Africa who're starving to death". They're dying because of "us". We are the ones responsible for them, not having food/necessities. All that food is being consumed/wasted/dumped by more developed countries...

I don't want to get into details as you may know all this..

[Black Bird Lockheed]

Many people reported that they saw aliens but have you heard any people who claimed that they saw god?

[Nabz]

Many people reported that they saw aliens but have you heard any people who claimed that they saw god?

Maybe you do not require your eye balls to see "God"? Maybe you require something else to see him/her/it?

[Luka Petrovic]

I just wanted to hear your guys thoughts on the common question atheists give to religious people. "Why are your prayers answered for the little things in your life, meanwhile people don't get food or water in Africa." Or "Why to you get your "daily bread" but kids in Africa don't." Anyone backing this question up ( I sure do!), anyone have any theological or philosophical ( ooops I almost typed factual) support support or counter claims?

This is a very interesting question, yet very easy to spot on, but may become very difficult to answer. My parents are religious and i often have short term debates with my parents to the extent that they say i've become atheist, however, often they're able to give me an answer which satisfies me. I've discussed with my parents, ages ago, on this, so i don't remember much but one thing that comes to mind is this:

Religious people, who go through suffering, often consider it as part of their "exam". They think that "since" the world, the universe is so well organized (i don't know where the whole concept of 2nd law of thermodynamics comes in lol), then there much be a proper system which governs this, so if people are doing these "exams", they must achieve their "results", somewhere else once they're done here. Not everyone lives a luxurious life. Even people, who are living a luxurious life, miss something. It can be either love, knowledge, whatever...so now we have come to the point where we say, ok, someone can't have "everything" in this world.

Now back to your question that why people starve to death. My parents say that it is part of their "exam" because everyone is tested differently. If you're given food, then you're being "tested" whether you share it with the ones who don't. There comes my exam, to share the food with ones who don't have it.

Problem is that our world is governed by a bunch of "people", who do not know how to govern. You see these areas with famine, drought, people dying because of lack of food, water etc. This doesn't have to do with God at all. People are using "God" as a scapegoat. It is because our systems are flawed. We produce enough food to feed everyone in this world but since disparities exist, someone suffers because of us. You can't say that "God doesn't exist because there are people in Africa who're starving to death". They're dying because of "us". We are the ones responsible for them, not having food/necessities. All that food is being consumed/wasted/dumped by more developed countries...

I don't want to get into details as you may know all this..

But why is Africa and Asia being tested so much and so hard? How come America or Europe isn;t riddled with AIDS, drugs, rebel clashes, famine, poverty? Is it at all fair a kid in Switzerland is tested because his parents didn't buy him the latest cell-phone, so he must learn modesty and a kid in Africa must learn be tested for spiritual strength by losing his parents in an rebel attack?

[Absolutely Positively]

But why is Africa and Asia being tested so much and so hard? How come America or Europe isn;t riddled with AIDS, drugs, rebel clashes, famine, poverty? Is it at all fair a kid in Switzerland is tested because his parents didn't buy him the latest cell-phone, so he must learn modesty and a kid in Africa must learn be tested for spiritual strength by losing his parents in an rebel attack?

A lot of African countries have mineral resources but the money they make goes to the government and some other people who are already wealthy. If they had a different system, (for example a democracy) it could be better (I'm not saying that it would be better, but there's a high chance that it could).

As for AIDS, people in America and Europe are more careful, use protection and get tested. People in Africa could do the same thing. (If you're born with AIDS, well, then you obviously can't to anything about that - but neither could someone from Europe). Same goes for the drugs. No one forces anyone to take drugs.

I agree that it isn't fair at all that a kid loses his parents at such a young age, but most rebels fight for something they believe in. In Egypt, they were fighting for a different government, one that would respect the people's requests. Same goes for Libya where they wanted to get rid of Gaddafi - and can you blame them? In every 'war' there are casualties. (I'm not saying that it justifies the deaths of so many people, but in some countries, it's their only chance and hope for a better life...)

And it's also not fair when a kid in Europe loses his dad due to cancer or a car crash.

[Nabz]

I just wanted to hear your guys thoughts on the common question atheists give to religious people. "Why are your prayers answered for the little things in your life, meanwhile people don't get food or water in Africa." Or "Why to you get your "daily bread" but kids in Africa don't." Anyone backing this question up ( I sure do!), anyone have any theological or philosophical ( ooops I almost typed factual) support support or counter claims?

This is a very interesting question, yet very easy to spot on, but may become very difficult to answer. My parents are religious and i often have short term debates with my parents to the extent that they say i've become atheist, however, often they're able to give me an answer which satisfies me. I've discussed with my parents, ages ago, on this, so i don't remember much but one thing that comes to mind is this:

Religious people, who go through suffering, often consider it as part of their "exam". They think that "since" the world, the universe is so well organized (i don't know where the whole concept of 2nd law of thermodynamics comes in lol), then there much be a proper system which governs this, so if people are doing these "exams", they must achieve their "results", somewhere else once they're done here. Not everyone lives a luxurious life. Even people, who are living a luxurious life, miss something. It can be either love, knowledge, whatever...so now we have come to the point where we say, ok, someone can't have "everything" in this world.

Now back to your question that why people starve to death. My parents say that it is part of their "exam" because everyone is tested differently. If you're given food, then you're being "tested" whether you share it with the ones who don't. There comes my exam, to share the food with ones who don't have it.

Problem is that our world is governed by a bunch of "people", who do not know how to govern. You see these areas with famine, drought, people dying because of lack of food, water etc. This doesn't have to do with God at all. People are using "God" as a scapegoat. It is because our systems are flawed. We produce enough food to feed everyone in this world but since disparities exist, someone suffers because of us. You can't say that "God doesn't exist because there are people in Africa who're starving to death". They're dying because of "us". We are the ones responsible for them, not having food/necessities. All that food is being consumed/wasted/dumped by more developed countries...

I don't want to get into details as you may know all this..

But why is Africa and Asia being tested so much and so hard? How come America or Europe isn;t riddled with AIDS, drugs, rebel clashes, famine, poverty? Is it at all fair a kid in Switzerland is tested because his parents didn't buy him the latest cell-phone, so he must learn modesty and a kid in Africa must learn be tested for spiritual strength by losing his parents in an rebel attack?

Absolutely positively raised a very good point about "war". There were many causalities during the world wars and surely you know who suffered and who didn't. As i mentioned in my post, it's the system which is flawed from both sides.

Edited May 16, 2013 by shad0wboss

[Luka Petrovic]

But why is Africa and Asia being tested so much and so hard? How come America or Europe isn;t riddled with AIDS, drugs, rebel clashes, famine, poverty? Is it at all fair a kid in Switzerland is tested because his parents didn't buy him the latest cell-phone, so he must learn modesty and a kid in Africa must learn be tested for spiritual strength by losing his parents in an rebel attack?

A lot of African countries have mineral resources but the money they make goes to the government and some other people who are already wealthy. If they had a different system, (for example a democracy) it could be better (I'm not saying that it would be better, but there's a high chance that it could).

As for AIDS, people in America and Europe are more careful, use protection and get tested. People in Africa could do the same thing. (If you're born with AIDS, well, then you obviously can't to anything about that - but neither could someone from Europe). Same goes for the drugs. No one forces anyone to take drugs.

I agree that it isn't fair at all that a kid loses his parents at such a young age, but most rebels fight for something they believe in. In Egypt, they were fighting for a different government, one that would respect the people's requests. Same goes for Libya where they wanted to get rid of Gaddafi - and can you blame them? In every 'war' there are casualties. (I'm not saying that it justifies the deaths of so many people, but in some countries, it's their only chance and hope for a better life...)

And it's also not fair when a kid in Europe loses his dad due to cancer or a car crash.

Thats getting a little political now, the whole war for the people thing doesn't work because A) People are now longing for the stability of the Gaddafi and Mubarak regimes ( happens all the time, people in Iraq have nothing now and would wish to go back to the stability and security of the old regime) and B) Yes bad things happen in Europe and America, people suffer horrible deaths and losses, but why is Africa, ASia, South America stricken by this so much more heavily? You can;t deny that despite people suffering in Developed areas of the world, that the same strife is experienced exponentially more in these three continents.

[Absolutely Positively]

Thats getting a little political now, the whole war for the people thing doesn't work because A) People are now longing for the stability of the Gaddafi and Mubarak regimes ( happens all the time, people in Iraq have nothing now and would wish to go back to the stability and security of the old regime) and B) Yes bad things happen in Europe and America, people suffer horrible deaths and losses, but why is Africa, ASia, South America stricken by this so much more heavily? You can;t deny that despite people suffering in Developed areas of the world, that the same strife is experienced exponentially more in these three continents.

This may be true. But if you look at the governments of America and Europe and their stability and well-being, you have to agree that it does play a huge role whether a country has a dictator or a functioning government where people can vote (without the results being falsified). - There's a reason why countries like Switzerland are relatively well-off...

I didn't deny any of it, but if you look at South Korea, for example, they had nothing after the Korean war in 1953. Literally Nothing. And look where they are now. They have Samsung, LG, Hyundai, etc. They've tried to improve and nowadays, they're doing really well. Things can change if you put effort in them. But again, that would have been impossible with a Gaddafi or a Mubarak-regime.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Absolutely Positively

[Luka Petrovic]

What about the idea that its not up to a deity to feed the starving children but ours. I mean its pretty funny when people expect some crazy miracle to happen and for things to be equal, but what about your task to do good or to be like god? Instead of us waiting for him to do something, maybe he is waiting for us to do something. Its of no gravity to him what happens in our world, he stays god, he stays eternal. However us mortals will one day apparently be judged how we treated the world around us and how we behaved. So who missed the ticket. Us or him?

[braindead]

Thats getting a little political now, the whole war for the people thing doesn't work because A) People are now longing for the stability of the Gaddafi and Mubarak regimes ( happens all the time, people in Iraq have nothing now and would wish to go back to the stability and security of the old regime) and B) Yes bad things happen in Europe and America, people suffer horrible deaths and losses, but why is Africa, ASia, South America stricken by this so much more heavily? You can;t deny that despite people suffering in Developed areas of the world, that the same strife is experienced exponentially more in these three continents.

This may be true. But if you look at the governments of America and Europe and their stability and well-being, you have to agree that it does play a huge role whether a country has a dictator or a functioning government where people can vote (without the results being falsified). - There's a reason why countries like Switzerland are relatively well-off...

I didn't deny any of it, but if you look at South Korea, for example, they had nothing after the Korean war in 1953. Literally Nothing. And look where they are now. They have Samsung, LG, Hyundai, etc. They've tried to improve and nowadays, they're doing really well. Things can change if you put effort in them. But again, that would have been impossible with a Gaddafi or a Mubarak-regime.

That example of Korea is a little irrelevant - yes, South Korea developed far better than North Korea after 1953, but that was due to heavy foreign investment (South Korea owes something like x10 in overseas debts compared to North Korea). Your example sort of undermines your own argument - you're saying that if enough effort is invested into improvement, it can happen, yet only foreign enterprise was able to initiate South Korea's recovery. Ask an economist, South Korea would be nowhere near as modernised as they are today if the USA hadn't stepped in to assist and help rebuild.

ANYWAY - yeah this is going political, and the debate clearly isn't about politics. Going back a few posts, someone said that because war exists, God doesn't (I'm assuming, correct me if I'm mistaken - nonetheless, a common viewpoint, so I'll comment on it anyway). This is completely ignorant of what most religions believe God to be - as far as I know, there is no religion in the entire world that claims God to be unequivocally benign; every single major branch of religion acknowledges the fact that bad and evil exist on this planet, and thus that God clearly does not conform to our "mere human" moral codes, so to speak. He/she clearly has no qualms about punishing the human race for our wrongdoings, and let's make no mistake, the fact that wars start is not down to any divine action, but the actions of men.

My own answer to the question at hand is, no, I don't believe in a God. Since basically everything (short of natural phenomenon, etc) is nowadays in the hands of our race (for instance, poverty could easily be solved if Western governments became economically selfless and invested continuously - exhibit A, South Korea). The way I see it, there is simply no room for God to have any influence, so how can he be of any importance to us? If he does exist, he's just sitting around on a cloud or something, waiting for the perfect moment to send an asteroid hurtling into the side of our planet to kill us all. Short of that, he does absolutely jack sh...

[Absolutely Positively]

That example of Korea is a little irrelevant - yes, South Korea developed far better than North Korea after 1953, but that was due to heavy foreign investment (South Korea owes something like x10 in overseas debts compared to North Korea). Your example sort of undermines your own argument - you're saying that if enough effort is invested into improvement, it can happen, yet only foreign enterprise was able to initiate South Korea's recovery. Ask an economist, South Korea would be nowhere near as modernised as they are today if the USA hadn't stepped in to assist and help rebuild.

Yes, the USA helped South Korea to recover and to rebuild their country, but they made something of it.

If you look at the amount of money the USA, Europe and several organizations spent on Africa and where they are now in terms of famine and poverty, it looks pretty bad.

[Nabz]

What about the idea that its not up to a deity to feed the starving children but ours. I mean its pretty funny when people expect some crazy miracle to happen and for things to be equal, but what about your task to do good or to be like god? Instead of us waiting for him to do something, maybe he is waiting for us to do something. Its of no gravity to him what happens in our world, he stays god, he stays eternal. However us mortals will one day apparently be judged how we treated the world around us and how we behaved. So who missed the ticket. Us or him?

that's the essence of my post, i made earlier.

[Award Winning Boss]

What about the idea that its not up to a deity to feed the starving children but ours. I mean its pretty funny when people expect some crazy miracle to happen and for things to be equal, but what about your task to do good or to be like god? Instead of us waiting for him to do something, maybe he is waiting for us to do something. Its of no gravity to him what happens in our world, he stays god, he stays eternal. However us mortals will one day apparently be judged how we treated the world around us and how we behaved. So who missed the ticket. Us or him?

So why do we attribute good things to God then? If you want to take the bad responsibilities from God then the good can go too. We should stop praising him for trivial rubbish and things that were done because of humans.

This talk about him 'waiting for us to do something' is just as ambiguous and saying 'he works in mysterious ways'. It's a near empty argument because we don't know what he's waiting for nor does he give us any indication that he's waiting at all. It's all good and dandy trying to excuse God from all the criticism and passing the blame onto ourselves but it becomes pointless after a while.

[Nabz]

What about the idea that its not up to a deity to feed the starving children but ours. I mean its pretty funny when people expect some crazy miracle to happen and for things to be equal, but what about your task to do good or to be like god? Instead of us waiting for him to do something, maybe he is waiting for us to do something. Its of no gravity to him what happens in our world, he stays god, he stays eternal. However us mortals will one day apparently be judged how we treated the world around us and how we behaved. So who missed the ticket. Us or him?

So why do we attribute good things to God then? If you want to take the bad responsibilities from God then the good can go too. We should stop praising him for trivial rubbish and things that were done because of humans.

This talk about him 'waiting for us to do something' is just as ambiguous and saying 'he works in mysterious ways'. It's a near empty argument because we don't know what he's waiting for nor does he give us any indication that he's waiting at all. It's all good and dandy trying to excuse God from all the criticism and passing the blame onto ourselves but it becomes pointless after a while.

Pardon me but i didn't get your argument. Are you saying that the statement made earlier is correct, just that we have to "do" something in every case? That is where you're wrong, if that's what you meant. Correct me if i misunderstood.

[Award Winning Boss]

What about the idea that its not up to a deity to feed the starving children but ours. I mean its pretty funny when people expect some crazy miracle to happen and for things to be equal, but what about your task to do good or to be like god? Instead of us waiting for him to do something, maybe he is waiting for us to do something. Its of no gravity to him what happens in our world, he stays god, he stays eternal. However us mortals will one day apparently be judged how we treated the world around us and how we behaved. So who missed the ticket. Us or him?

So why do we attribute good things to God then? If you want to take the bad responsibilities from God then the good can go too. We should stop praising him for trivial rubbish and things that were done because of humans.

This talk about him 'waiting for us to do something' is just as ambiguous and saying 'he works in mysterious ways'. It's a near empty argument because we don't know what he's waiting for nor does he give us any indication that he's waiting at all. It's all good and dandy trying to excuse God from all the criticism and passing the blame onto ourselves but it becomes pointless after a while.

Pardon me but i didn't get your argument. Are you saying that the statement made earlier is correct, just that we have to "do" something in every case? That is where you're wrong, if that's what you meant. Correct me if i misunderstood.

Not at all. I don't think the statement made earlier has much value.

[Matsu]

Many people reported that they saw aliens but have you heard any people who claimed that they saw god?

I think like every so often somebody finds Jesus in his toast

[Matsu]

What about the idea that its not up to a deity to feed the starving children but ours. I mean its pretty funny when people expect some crazy miracle to happen and for things to be equal, but what about your task to do good or to be like god? Instead of us waiting for him to do something, maybe he is waiting for us to do something. Its of no gravity to him what happens in our world, he stays god, he stays eternal. However us mortals will one day apparently be judged how we treated the world around us and how we behaved. So who missed the ticket. Us or him?

So why do we attribute good things to God then? If you want to take the bad responsibilities from God then the good can go too. We should stop praising him for trivial rubbish and things that were done because of humans.

This talk about him 'waiting for us to do something' is just as ambiguous and saying 'he works in mysterious ways'. It's a near empty argument because we don't know what he's waiting for nor does he give us any indication that he's waiting at all. It's all good and dandy trying to excuse God from all the criticism and passing the blame onto ourselves but it becomes pointless after a while.

I agree. Logically, either everything or nothing is God's fault (depending on the way you see it). If we don't truly have free will (which is really doubtful unless God is a sadistic bastard.. though now that I think of it he could sort of be considered a pretty sadistic bastard by giving us free will) then everything is God's fault, both good and bad. If we have free will, then honestly pretty much nothing currently happening is God's fault. That's why I think most of the sunday prayers (please give me sevens in my Physics externals, please help me get a raise so I can buy a new suit, etc) are just useless internal vocalizations of hope. I feel like the proper way of prayer doesn't really involve any internal dialogue, but is more of trying to achieve some sort of zen-like emotional and spiritual transcendence through just "being" (if that makes any sense). Not chatting, just feeling. Almost like meditation? IDK though, I'm no priest. Admittedly though, I still do "pray for things" from time to time because no matter what I think logically, doing so lifts some sort of emotional burden off my shoulders, so maybe that's why lots of people like blaming things of God. So that they don't need to comprehend the fact that whatever happens is just a random result of random variables interacting in random ways nobody can control.

[wjw]

Personally, I see no connection between intelligence and religious beliefs. It seems to me that those who are not intelligent try to prove to themselves or others that they are, in fact, intelligent by claiming they do not believe in God: 'my thought processes are more advanced than yours and thus I can see the faults in religions, which billions of others cannot see.' I have, though, known intelligent people that both believe and do not believe.

It also seems that some people do not believe because they want to fit in with what is common of the modern world, or simply because they don't understand. God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. We were created in His image, but we are not Him. Some people just seem to think that he is a man that is just invisible and living in the sky. All of those things are wrong, though. They also ask questions like 'can He create something so heavy he can't move it,' 'why do people suffer,' (which does relate to giving us free will, and is indirectly addressed in the Bible), and 'who created God, then'? These questions can't be attributed to Him, though. He is in a different world, He is a different being, and He is something completely unfathomable by the human mind. Yet people still try to fathom Him.

I do not believe because I need to, or because I want to, or because I have to, or because that is how I was raised (atheists are equally affected by culture or society when determining their beliefs, in many cases). I believe simply because I believe. That is just what I think happened... There is nothing more to belief. It makes sense to me, and I understand that God is not human, and that He can do anything, and knows everything. But no, we can't see him, as we lost that privilege after the forbidden fruit incident. And it is pointless to say 'why hasn't He shown Himself to me'? Why should he have to? That is not what faith is. Nobody can see Him until they die. This is something I accept, and it does not get in the way of my beliefs. I have never seen billions of people in the world, but I believe they are there. It makes sense to.

Religion doesn't conflict with science either. At least I have never found that it does. I am Catholic and believe what is written in the Bible, but I also believe in the big bang, evolution, and all else that has been proven with science. Some people say science and religion can't work together, but I see no reason why not. Maybe they just don't look at the Bible the same way (ex: the Bible says the world was created in seven days, but it also says a day to us is a thousand years to God, and a thousand years to God is a day to us, because time doesn't exist in Heaven. This can therefore be expanded to a day to God is equal to a billion years to us. Therefore, I see no reason why 'let there be light' could not be the Big Bang). Overall, I think maybe looking at religion from a different point of view, while not just dismissing it as something for crazy fundamentalists - who are not very Christian at all - may provide a better way of understanding it, and show that you can be educated and religious at the same time.

That is just what I believe. I'm sorry for the long post!!

[Ezak]

Personally, I see no connection between intelligence and religious beliefs. It seems to me that those who are not intelligent try to prove to themselves or others that they are, in fact, intelligent by claiming they do not believe in God: 'my thought processes are more advanced than yours and thus I can see the faults in religions, which billions of others cannot see.' I have, though, known intelligent people that both believe and do not believe.

It also seems that some people do not believe because they want to fit in with what is common of the modern world, or simply because they don't understand. God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. We were created in His image, but we are not Him. Some people just seem to think that he is a man that is just invisible and living in the sky. All of those things are wrong, though. They also ask questions like 'can He create something so heavy he can't move it,' 'why do people suffer,' (which does relate to giving us free will, and is indirectly addressed in the Bible), and 'who created God, then'? These questions can't be attributed to Him, though. He is in a different world, He is a different being, and He is something completely unfathomable by the human mind. Yet people still try to fathom Him.

I do not believe because I need to, or because I want to, or because I have to, or because that is how I was raised (atheists are equally affected by culture or society when determining their beliefs, in many cases). I believe simply because I believe. That is just what I think happened... There is nothing more to belief. It makes sense to me, and I understand that God is not human, and that He can do anything, and knows everything. But no, we can't see him, as we lost that privilege after the forbidden fruit incident. And it is pointless to say 'why hasn't He shown Himself to me'? Why should he have to? That is not what faith is. Nobody can see Him until they die. This is something I accept, and it does not get in the way of my beliefs. I have never seen billions of people in the world, but I believe they are there. It makes sense to.

Religion doesn't conflict with science either. At least I have never found that it does. I am Catholic and believe what is written in the Bible, but I also believe in the big bang, evolution, and all else that has been proven with science. Some people say science and religion can't work together, but I see no reason why not. Maybe they just don't look at the Bible the same way (ex: the Bible says the world was created in seven days, but it also says a day to us is a thousand years to God, and a thousand years to God is a day to us, because time doesn't exist in Heaven. This can therefore be expanded to a day to God is equal to a billion years to us. Therefore, I see no reason why 'let there be light' could not be the Big Bang). Overall, I think maybe looking at religion from a different point of view, while not just dismissing it as something for crazy fundamentalists - who are not very Christian at all - may provide a better way of understanding it, and show that you can be educated and religious at the same time.

That is just what I believe. I'm sorry for the long post!!

The notion that atheists are edgy teenagers is a worn- out strawman. Furthermore it is faulty to compare how people become atheists as it is a negation of beliving in a god, and in most cases in religion. Every atheist belong to the same group, while every religious person belong to his/her own, separate from all other religions and atheism. You don't think that your upbringing have anything to do with you being a catholic of all the thousands of different religions in the world?

And sure, the bible can be interpreted to be compatible with science, but it have to with that religion will quickly become incompatible with modern life if it was taken literally. There is a reason that scientist do not look in the scriptures for answers to their quandaries.

Interesting discussion on the whole benevolent God as well. I think it is pretty evident that not stopping catastrophes and "testing" us through misery is a sign of something completely different from love, at least if you want to use the common definition of the word.

Someone that is christian: How come that hell have to exist? I mean, god is supposed to be all- loving and omnipotent, surely he must have control over if hell will or will not exist. He thus make an active choice in keeping it and letting those who do not get into heaven burn for all eternity. Doesn't that seem very flawed when he could just admit everyone into heaven regardless or just scrap hell and let people be dead?

Edited May 17, 2013 by Ezak