Why don't you believe in God?

[Black Bird Lockheed]

Well for us truth is the equality in gender that I agree. But tell me one thing. Everyone believes in superstition that you agree. And don't you think superstition arises when we believe in god. Have you come across any atheist who believes in any superstition? Why would person consider unlucky if he crosses the path of black cat.Simply because they blindly believe in god and they are not in proper state of mind.

And one thing have the existence of the god proved yet.? Of course there must be some old testament and books describing about the existence of the god. But do think it is true? It can be fabricated ( I am not against any religion). These testaments might also be written to fool the people. And if people are really committing sins like robbery, murder or if there is a self style god then why don't god suddenly come and enlighten people that this is true or he is a fraud. That is simply because god does not exist and that is the truth.

[Nabz]

Just because someone is suppressed doesn't mean what they are saying its true. Like the conspiracy that the illuminati and aliens run the pentagon. Its not mainstream for a reason. Martin Luther could by no means prove that donations were not effective in getting you a place in heaven. I'm not supporting catholic doctrine. However martin Luther could not prove theologically or quantitatively his claims. Martin Luther attacked a very politicized and powerful organization. Did he think they would take his 90 point critical thesis to heart and rid the church of its corruption and render it powerless?

Thats neat example, and exactly why I ask what is truth. To the western world to us equality between genders is truth. This group obviously saw it as an abomination, can you say they are wrong? Which one is right, no one can say...

There's a fine line between equality and equity. I don't know which one you're referring to. There should be equity when treating gender but equality may lead to inequity.

[Luka Petrovic]

Well for us truth is the equality in gender that I agree. But tell me one thing. Everyone believes in superstition that you agree. And don't you think superstition arises when we believe in god. Have you come across any atheist who believes in any superstition? Why would person consider unlucky if he crosses the path of black cat.Simply because they blindly believe in god and they are not in proper state of mind.

And one thing have the existence of the god proved yet.? Of course there must be some old testament and books describing about the existence of the god. But do think it is true? It can be fabricated ( I am not against any religion). These testaments might also be written to fool the people. And if people are really committing sins like robbery, murder or if there is a self style god then why don't god suddenly come and enlighten people that this is true or he is a fraud. That is simply because god does not exist and that is the truth.

I'm not sure, for sure many atheists don't believe in superstition. That would be odd not believing in god but saying that carrying a rabbits foot will protect you. that being said, when these superstitions surround paranormal occurrences, and weird things start to happen and they get scared. it suddenly becomes more believable. Belief in God and superstition are things that manifest themselves mostly to personal and close family experiences, and then are reinforced by a community. Its something you can't sell in a textbook.

In you're second paragraph you are asking some really heavy theological questions, some studying would be good. The problem is, people don't realize you can;t just pick up the bible (or any other religious text for that matter)and interpret it. People will hate me for saying this, but compare it high science. It will takes years of study and research. A person who likes physics can;t just got work at CERN straight out of high school. They need years of work and education. Same with bible scholars, to begin to understand its depth most people can;t even imagine, its why its hard to use verses. people literally don;t know what they are reading.

There's a fine line between equality and equity. I don't know which one you're referring to. There should be equity when treating gender but equality may lead to inequity.

Yes I agree with that, I needed a word to describe my views. I'm not trying to start another debate. But I feel equality is asking basically woman to do men's jobs and Men to do women's jobs. its not that they can't be done, but we're biologically different and that will impact what jobs are more attractive to us as a sex, or dare i say more appropriate to us as a sex.

[Black Bird Lockheed]

Well for us truth is the equality in gender that I agree. But tell me one thing. Everyone believes in superstition that you agree. And don't you think superstition arises when we believe in god. Have you come across any atheist who believes in any superstition? Why would person consider unlucky if he crosses the path of black cat.Simply because they blindly believe in god and they are not in proper state of mind.

And one thing have the existence of the god proved yet.? Of course there must be some old testament and books describing about the existence of the god. But do think it is true? It can be fabricated ( I am not against any religion). These testaments might also be written to fool the people. And if people are really committing sins like robbery, murder or if there is a self style god then why don't god suddenly come and enlighten people that this is true or he is a fraud. That is simply because god does not exist and that is the truth.

I'm not sure, for sure many atheists don't believe in superstition. That would be odd not believing in god but saying that carrying a rabbits foot will protect you. that being said, when these superstitions surround paranormal occurrences, and weird things start to happen and they get scared. it suddenly becomes more believable. Belief in God and superstition are things that manifest themselves mostly to personal and close family experiences, and then are reinforced by a community. Its something you can't sell in a textbook.

In you're second paragraph you are asking some really heavy theological questions, some studying would be good. The problem is, people don't realize you can;t just pick up the bible (or any other religious text for that matter)and interpret it. People will hate me for saying this, but compare it high science. It will takes years of study and research. A person who likes physics can;t just got work at CERN straight out of high school. They need years of work and education. Same with bible scholars, to begin to understand its depth most people can;t even imagine, its why its hard to use verses. people literally don;t know what they are reading.

>>There's a fine line between equality and equity. I don't know which one you're referring to. There should be equity when treating gender but equality may lead to inequity.

Yes I agree with that, I needed a word to describe my views. I'm not trying to start another debate. But I feel equality is asking basically woman to do men's jobs and Men to do women's jobs. its not that they can't be done, but we're biologically different and that will impact what jobs are more attractive to us as a sex, or dare i say more appropriate to us as a sex.

So do you believe in god ( I am just asking you)?. So why are people are exploiting each other in the name of religion? Al Qaeda is the best example ( not against any religion once again) are killing each other in the name of their god. I completely appreciate the fact that some scholars research some testaments for years together. So why do these higher order people don't preach peace ( in case of Al Qaeda) who are in a mad pursuit to completely converting whole world into Muslims. You know one thing Bible says one thing, Bhagwat Gita says another and Koran says some thing else. Why so? If god do exists why these holy books are saying different things and take the creation of man each holy books gives us some different stories. ( Don't worry I am not firing away questions just enjoying a good debate)

Edited April 28, 2013 by akash jishnu

[Nabz]

Well for us truth is the equality in gender that I agree. But tell me one thing. Everyone believes in superstition that you agree. And don't you think superstition arises when we believe in god. Have you come across any atheist who believes in any superstition? Why would person consider unlucky if he crosses the path of black cat.Simply because they blindly believe in god and they are not in proper state of mind.

And one thing have the existence of the god proved yet.? Of course there must be some old testament and books describing about the existence of the god. But do think it is true? It can be fabricated ( I am not against any religion). These testaments might also be written to fool the people. And if people are really committing sins like robbery, murder or if there is a self style god then why don't god suddenly come and enlighten people that this is true or he is a fraud. That is simply because god does not exist and that is the truth.

I'm not sure, for sure many atheists don't believe in superstition. That would be odd not believing in god but saying that carrying a rabbits foot will protect you. that being said, when these superstitions surround paranormal occurrences, and weird things start to happen and they get scared. it suddenly becomes more believable. Belief in God and superstition are things that manifest themselves mostly to personal and close family experiences, and then are reinforced by a community. Its something you can't sell in a textbook.

In you're second paragraph you are asking some really heavy theological questions, some studying would be good. The problem is, people don't realize you can;t just pick up the bible (or any other religious text for that matter)and interpret it. People will hate me for saying this, but compare it high science. It will takes years of study and research. A person who likes physics can;t just got work at CERN straight out of high school. They need years of work and education. Same with bible scholars, to begin to understand its depth most people can;t even imagine, its why its hard to use verses. people literally don;t know what they are reading.

>>>There's a fine line between equality and equity. I don't know which one you're referring to. There should be equity when treating gender but equality may lead to inequity.<

/span>lockquote>

Yes I agree with that, I needed a word to describe my views. I'm not trying to start another debate. But I feel equality is asking basically woman to do men's jobs and Men to do women's jobs. its not that they can't be done, but we're biologically different and that will impact what jobs are more attractive to us as a sex, or dare i say more appropriate to us as a sex.

So do you believe in god ( I am just asking you)?. So why are people are exploiting each other in the name of religion? Al Qaeda is the best example ( not against any religion once again) are killing each other in the name of their god. I completely appreciate the fact that some scholars research some testaments for years together. So why do these higher order people don't preach peace ( in case of Al Qaeda) who are in a mad pursuit to completely converting whole world into Muslims. You know one thing Bible says one thing, Bhagwat Gita says another and Koran says some thing else. Why so? If god do exists why these holy books are saying different things and take the creation of man each holy books gives us some different stories. ( Don't worry I am not firing away questions just enjoying a good debate)

Well then there are dumbass' in the world, you know. I don't think i have to explain much about this as it's pretty much self explainatory about what Al Qaida really is. Have you read the holy books? I have read them to some extent (well at least i've tried to read). The basis do not contradict at all. They all have Noah's legend, Solomon empire etc...not sure about Gita as it comes from a polytheist religion. So your facts aren't correct.

Edited April 28, 2013 by shad0wboss

[Black Bird Lockheed]

Well for us truth is the equality in gender that I agree. But tell me one thing. Everyone believes in superstition that you agree. And don't you think superstition arises when we believe in god. Have you come across any atheist who believes in any superstition? Why would person consider unlucky if he crosses the path of black cat.Simply because they blindly believe in god and they are not in proper state of mind.

And one thing have the existence of the god proved yet.? Of course there must be some old testament and books describing about the existence of the god. But do think it is true? It can be fabricated ( I am not against any religion). These testaments might also be written to fool the people. And if people are really committing sins like robbery, murder or if there is a self style god then why don't god suddenly come and enlighten people that this is true or he is a fraud. That is simply because god does not exist and that is the truth.

I'm not sure, for sure many atheists don't believe in superstition. That would be odd not believing in god but saying that carrying a rabbits foot will protect you. that being said, when these superstitions surround paranormal occurrences, and weird things start to happen and they get scared. it suddenly becomes more believable. Belief in God and superstition are things that manifest themselves mostly to personal and close family experiences, and then are reinforced by a community. Its something you can't sell in a textbook.

In you're second paragraph you are asking some really heavy theological questions, some studying would be good. The problem is, people don't realize you can;t just pick up the bible (or any other religious text for that matter)and interpret it. People will hate me for saying this, but compare it high science. It will takes years of study and research. A person who likes physics can;t just got work at CERN straight out of high school. They need years of work and education. Same with bible scholars, to begin to understand its depth most people can;t even imagine, its why its hard to use verses. people literally don;t know what they are reading.

>>>>There's a fine line between equality and equity. I don't know which one you're referring to. There should be equity when treating gender but equality may lead to inequity.<

/span>lockquote>

Yes I agree with that, I needed a word to describe my views. I'm not trying to start another debate. But I feel equality is asking basically woman to do men's jobs and Men to do women's jobs. its not that they can't be done, but we're biologically different and that will impact what jobs are more attractive to us as a sex, or dare i say more appropriate to us as a sex.

lockquote>

So do you believe in god ( I am just asking you)?. So why are people are exploiting each other in the name of religion? Al Qaeda is the best example ( not against any religion once again) are killing each other in the name of their god. I completely appreciate the fact that some scholars research some testaments for years together. So why do these higher order people don't preach peace ( in case of Al Qaeda) who are in a mad pursuit to completely converting whole world into Muslims. You know one thing Bible says one thing, Bhagwat Gita says another and Koran says some thing else. Why so? If god do exists why these holy books are saying different things and take the creation of man each holy books gives us some different stories. ( Don't worry I am not firing away questions just enjoying a good debate)

Well then there are dumbass' in the world, you know. I don't think i have to explain much about this as it's pretty much self explainatory about what Al Qaida really is. Have you read the holy books? I have read them to some extent (well at least i've tried to read). The basis do not contradict at all. They all have Noah's legend, Solomon empire etc...not sure about Gita as it comes from a polytheist religion. So your facts aren't correct.

Well I am aware of Noah's arc and I don't know Solomon's empire. Well according to Hindu mythology there are gods, humans, demons, demi gods, giants ( Kumbakara ) and talking and god animals like Garuda the eagle and Nandini the Ox. According to Hindu mythology there are 1000 gods and there are many saints whereas there is one god in both Muslim and Christan..In Hindu mythology there are magical weapons ( arrows which automatically emits fires and snakes when hit) flying chariot etc. Even the creation of humans are done by three main gods ( Bramha, Vishnu and Shiva where as according to your belief only one god had created Adam and Eve.)

So I doubt all these religious books might have the similar accounts.)

[Luka Petrovic]

Well I actually think there are many more similarities than we realize. However i saw this only for certain groups. I'm talking about the most original form of each religion, not off-shoots ( problem when identifying "Christian" theology... what is "Christian" lol). For me to even really debate similarities I first must say, if the religion must be in its oldest most legitimate form and it also must not condemn non-believers to a horrible fate. I know some religions are fair, they say if someone is a near saint, is charitable, loving, etc. but their only transgression is not believing in god, or that they believe in the "wrong" religion, that they are still a good person. I won;t tolerate the "you go to hell for not being part of our group." I never took a religions class so I won't pretend to know a lot about many religions. However, I think if you pulled up some hindu theology, I could give you a christian equivalent. Just to show you how similar they are.

Oh and you mentioned Al-Qaida and other such groups. their motivation is never actually religious, its just a good explanation/ fall back. Just like nationalities religion can be used and abused to forward political agendas and gain power. unfortunately people see this as something inherent to religion and think without religion and nationality that we would have no wars. it must be realized these are just ways of picking a side when resources are scarce. Religious groups and nationalities can live together peacefully in good times, but when things go bad you have to pick a side. Obviously you will pick your own. if we were to suddenly get over religion and nationality we would still fight over socio-economic differences, political differences, etc. So I think that argument doesn't really say much except that religion is neutral. it can be used to justify war, but it can also be used to speak against it.

[Shalaleh]

i dont think education and beliefs are related at all, it depends on the person in my opinion:)

btw this reminds me SO much of TOK classes lmao

[Luka Petrovic]

The way education is taught in this post-enlightenment era kind of makes it seem that you can;t be both religious and a person of science. When really they are not mutually exclusive, many scientists are religious, but many are atheist as well. I don't think its the education per say. But the implications of having a good education. If you have a good education, you also probably live in a decently well off country. Its not culturally prominent to be religious and you have other solutions to life's problems...

[Ezak]

The thing is that being religious and being a scientist does clash, as every religion speaks of a deity that intervenes in the creation and this is falsifiable. As you start to accept that the deity is further and further away from creation, due to the falsifiability, god becomes no mere than a bystander, not a loving creator who is in need of worship.

You can be religious, I don't mind, but in many cases these opinions clash with the ethics of the 21st century and scientific discoveries. So due to the prominent position of science, religions will ultimately have to succumb to the dogma of science, or die out. The people who hardheadedly try to withstand this revolution such as islamists, evangelical christians and others are the symptoms of the loss of power religion have and is continously experiencing.

Finally, a sense of awe, call it spiritualism if you want, is very much possible without believing in a supernatural world.

[Black Bird Lockheed]

If you guys believe god, then you must all also be believing in ghosts?

[Luka Petrovic]

For the sake of this argument i'm only going to talk about Genesis. I'm not knowledgable enough to discuss any other creation stories, so I won't pretend to know them, or even have an inkling of understanding. Also I'm going to have to make a choice in the interpretation and which is correct. In this case I will say the interpretation by the early church fathers in the first several centuries following the birth of christ. These men were educated polymaths who studied math, languages and the sciences at the time and this is what they had to say...

The bible is to be taken literally. Literally in the sense of when "god made the grass," he made the grass. when he "planted the trees" he planted the trees. How? no one knows. Well science tells us trees and plants evolved etc etc. There is no issue there. its when people take it literally and say "But HE planted the trees." Well they are thinking on the most basic level of the text and don;t even stop to think. How could have god possibly planted the trees, when he has no hands. there is no way god planted the trees in the way a human would. he has no hands! So there are ways to interpret the bible, which have their origins in ancient traditions that don't clash with science.

It is a text that you cannot simply pick up and interpret. it takes years of studying ancient languages, history and culture to really get it. You would say the same for science, no one can just say yeah I know a little physics. let me do some work at CERN and write a paper on what I did there.

[Ezak]

I'm not saying that you are wrong, instead I would say we are on the same track.

But you are making it easy for yourself. I'm not arguing that the bible is evil, it's not, I'm simply saying that the bible have some wonderful rules, "love thy neighbour" and the golden rule, some awful rules (basically everything in the old testament and some rules that Jesus came and made) and a lot of nonsense that made sense at the time but that time, science and wisdom have proved wrong.

Like every anthropological text it contains human wisdom and signs of human ignorance, when we fail to realize that the holy books are human, we take it word by word, but by realizing that it is indeed human, then its easy to say that we made god in our image.

[Luka Petrovic]

Oh I'll agree with that, the bible is a humanized version of "god." To fit the ( if a god exists) greatest, most mysterious and complex thing in the universe in two books, it must be dumbed down. Put into something that we can comprehend. (This is also a view of early church fathers, not necessarily any other denomination such as catholicism and the 23,000 protestant denominations).

Edited April 29, 2013 by Luka Petrovic

[Black Bird Lockheed]

I read in many books that God is a form of energy and there is no physical appearance. If god is the savior of people why don't god appear before people today just which is described in the old fables like Moses and Samson wherein God gave him some natural powers when their people were facing oppression from tyrant rulers?

[Luka Petrovic]

I wonder that myself sometimes, in our eyes there must be some worthy causes for a similar movement. I'm no theologian, so I have no clue. If I were to guess though, it would have something to do with the hebrews being the chosen people. Kind of hard to spread a religion when you are a slave...

[susanne]

you can't see him, hear him nor does he offer any evidence that he is there apart from the bible;

when I say this I'm usually bombarded with but the bible says so blah blah. Whatever! The Bible is a collection of books written by people who are supposedly influenced by the Holy spirit but all I see is that there is a whole bunch of plotholes and inconsistency.

It's ridiculous when it comes to the debate of evolution, especially INtelligent Design. It's practically saying, well we can't find an answer so let's just say that it's all God's work! I think this hinders our progress in science as it doesn't explain anything at all.

I also refuses to believe in god because of the divisions between churches, I mean, COME ON< you are all christians and yet why are you so divided?

[Luka Petrovic]

you can't see him, hear him nor does he offer any evidence that he is there apart from the bible;

when I say this I'm usually bombarded with but the bible says so blah blah. Whatever! The Bible is a collection of books written by people who are supposedly influenced by the Holy spirit but all I see is that there is a whole bunch of plotholes and inconsistency.

It's ridiculous when it comes to the debate of evolution, especially INtelligent Design. It's practically saying, well we can't find an answer so let's just say that it's all God's work! I think this hinders our progress in science as it doesn't explain anything at all.

I also refuses to believe in god because of the divisions between churches, I mean, COME ON< you are all christians and yet why are you so divided?

Seeing, hearing and other types evidence I won't address for the purpose of debate because of the nature of it. Having a vision isn't on the same level of evidence (in your perspective likely) as something more qualitative or quantitative. But take it into account these things are a reality for many people. you may not see it, but they do and it speaks to something. Yeah it could easily be wrong but you can't just refute it 100%.

On the whole bible thing, it really depends on the denomination. It is mostly the protestant denominations who claim the bible is the end all and be all. Which is funny because even in the bible it is said that not al of christ's teachings, instructions and traditions are written in it. To also address the inconsistencies, those appear when the bible read not understood. Bear with me, I won't say that you have to pray and see jesus before you really understand the bible. No people simply read the passages without looking at it with a historical context as well without the consideration of translations. Like I said before to actually understand it takes years of study in theology, history and ancient languages (greek, hebrew, aramaic). Just like the average person cannot understand the Higgs-boson theory to its true depth. An average person is not qualified to make am official judgment of the bible ( or any other religious text for that matter).

The intelligent design theory doesn't say " we can't find an answer." It uses reasoning and logic in a philosophical sense. For example I see that with the exception of untouched nature, that everything in this world was designed by a human. The computer, desk, chair, clothes, carpet, everything around you was first a design in someone's conscious before becoming a material reality. None of these items ever occurred by accident. A tree never grew into a chair by accident. It was created by someone with the intelligence and capability to create a chair. So now how did the world around us come to be? Yes evolution, but that addresses how things that are already there evolved into what they are now. How did they get here though? God I don't know, but I think you severely underestimate the thought put into this question by some theologians.

On the case of hindering us from science. Not true. Lack of education, socio-economic status, laziness hinder our understanding of science just as much. people tend to think science and religion are mutually exclusive but the two has co-existed pretty quietly in many cases. Did you know the scientific method was designed by a catholic monk? Or that the Big bang theory was designed by a Catholic priest (or monk, can't recall) as well? Both men lived for god and for science, sure it can be an excuse, but alongside many other secular excuses as well.

How is a divided group of churches at all a reflection of the existence of god? using religion for power and political, economic and personal motives creating divides and schisms are human mistakes, not those of god. So it doesn't the existence of god. Just the sanity and organization of christians

Edited May 2, 2013 by Luka Petrovic

[susanne]

you can't see him, hear him nor does he offer any evidence that he is there apart from the bible;

when I say this I'm usually bombarded with but the bible says so blah blah. Whatever! The Bible is a collection of books written by people who are supposedly influenced by the Holy spirit but all I see is that there is a whole bunch of plotholes and inconsistency.

It's ridiculous when it comes to the debate of evolution, especially INtelligent Design. It's practically saying, well we can't find an answer so let's just say that it's all God's work! I think this hinders our progress in science as it doesn't explain anything at all.

I also refuses to believe in god because of the divisions between churches, I mean, COME ON< you are all christians and yet why are you so divided?

Seeing, hearing and other types evidence I won't address for the purpose of debate because of the nature of it. Having a vision isn't on the same level of evidence (in your perspective likely) as something more qualitative or quantitative. But take it into account these things are a reality for many people. you may not see it, but they do and it speaks to something. Yeah it could easily be wrong but you can't just refute it 100%.

On the whole bible thing, it really depends on the denomination. It is mostly the protestant denominations who claim the bible is the end all and be all. Which is funny because even in the bible it is said that not al of christ's teachings, instructions and traditions are written in it. To also address the inconsistencies, those appear when the bible read not understood. Bear with me, I won't say that you have to pray and see jesus before you really understand the bible. No people simply read the passages without looking at it with a historical context as well without the consideration of translations. Like I said before to actually understand it takes years of study in theology, history and ancient languages (greek, hebrew, aramaic). Just like the average person cannot understand the Higgs-boson theory to its true depth. An average person is not qualified to make am official judgment of the bible ( or any other religious text for that matter).

The intelligent design theory doesn't say " we can't find an answer." It uses reasoning and logic in a philosophical sense. For example I see that with the exception of untouched nature, that everything in this world was designed by a human. The computer, desk, chair, clothes, carpet, everything around you was first a design in someone's conscious before becoming a material reality. None of these items ever occurred by accident. A tree never grew into a chair by accident. It was created by someone with the intelligence and capability to create a chair. So now how did the world around us come to be? Yes evolution, but that addresses how things that are already there evolved into what they are now. How did they get here though? God I don't know, but I think you severely underestimate the thought put into this question by some theologians.

On the case of hindering us from science. Not true. Lack of education, socio-economic status, laziness hinder our understanding of science just as much. people tend to think science and religion are mutually exclusive but the two has co-existed pretty quietly in many cases. Did you know the scientific method was designed by a catholic monk? Or that the Big bang theory was designed by a Catholic priest (or monk, can't recall) as well? Both men lived for god and for science, sure it can be an excuse, but alongside many other secular excuses as well.

How is a divided group of churches at all a reflection of the existence of god? using religion for power and political, economic and personal motives creating divides and schisms are human mistakes, not those of god. So it doesn't the existence of god. Just the sanity and organization of christians

Thanks for replying, your response is extremely interesting but I'll address my points;

First of all, concerning the different branches of Christianity, there are just so many groups and divisions and if you have read through the history enough, the Catholics and Protestants fought a LOT. What I don't get is, they all (theoratically) essentially believe in the same thing, but yet why do they argue with each other? If the god in this context is one god, then well, isn't his ideas splintered and explained and understood differently by different people while still being the only truth there is? If there is only one god, shouldn't he have made himself clearer?

It also seems weird that Islam and Christianity and Judaism has the same origin.

Second thing is I don't understand why does God permit all those dreadful things that has been done in his name. Like Bloody Queen Mary, who literally killed people for their beliefs, terrorists (although Muslim terrorist are prominent in the news but I've heard that there are also radical christians) etc. And I don't understand how could a god allow for injustice in the historical society, the bit in the bible where it refers to the position of women, well, it's pretty sexist. I also don't see why Eve must be condemned for eating the Apple of Good or Bad or whatever it's called in English; well if eating the forsaid apple gives you knowledge isn't god saying that having knowledge is bad? Saying that being able to critically judge matter is bad?

I also refused to believe in God after a documentary on the archaeological discovery of the first few books of the Bible. There are a few major points

1. the creation according to the Bible is very similar to legends around the area of Israel, as in other religions back then.

2. the bible is written in the court during David's reign or something, instead of being accredited to the traditional writers

3. some of the Bible's story isn't entirely true; according to a tablet unearthed in a site, it said "I have slain David" or something to that effect, hence the historicity of the Bible could be argued. I can't remember all the points because it was ages ago, but it was enough to transform me from being a believer to an atheist.

On the counter-argument of ID, what if there isn't a god there to guide everything? We know that atoms reacts with each other to produce compounds because of electron, and that it is possible for electrons to do such things because of the energys that is inside it (let's not go into the Higgs boson stuff). Well, even if there is god, then his purpose in the universe is pretty very different from what it is in the bible.

Well, if you are going to make believing in God far more complicated than writing a HL Chem report without knowing how to, then I guess I'm not in your league. Afterall, even if our vision and hearing and other senses are not working, science have worked on many people, otherwise you and I wouldn't be alive. However, the Bible did absolutely nothing to help the Bubonic Plague outbreak; it only worsened the hysteria and problem. From a practicality point of view, I'd rather believe in something that works, both practically and theoratically rather than something that changes from this to that. I mean, for the love of cheesecakes, if A+B=c, then A+B=c, there is nothing more to argue about it; you can't say that but god intended fot A+B=d (d does not equal to c); because if it's proven, then it works everywhere hence it is true, in all senses, rather than being all cynical about it and changing it from one thing to another

[Luka Petrovic]

I'd also like to thank you for replying your questions are engaging and countered well, yet maintain a certain level of respect often lost in such debates. So thanks again.

A fair warning before I plunge into some church history to answer your first question, I am Orthodox Christian, so my view of the catholic church and the protestant churches being off-shoots due to political and not theological reasons are biased in that direction. Not saying I don;t believe what I say, but I thought I would let you know before.

Well before we even go into the Catholic church vs. the protestant church we have to look at the origins of the catholic church. After the pentecost in 33 AD, which was basically when the apostles decided to continue their mission spreading the word of christ the early church was formed. This church spread under Roman suppression, and by 325 AD there were 5 patriarchates, you could think of them as capitals of christianity in regions. They were Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria, Constantinople and Rome. This was also around the time the church was considered legitimate and became the official religion of the Eastern Roman empire allowing it spread further. In this early church there was no ONE leader on earth, each of the Bishops (patriarch is the proper title for a bishop of these cities) was of equal stature, not a single one had rule over the other. That being said the patriarch in Rome was given the title "First among equals" to recognize that he sat in a city that was the most important in the ancient world and the fact that the most important apostle christ had, Peter, founded a church there. Come 1025 however the relationship was not as good. In the East they spoke greek in Rome they spoke latin like the rest of the West. A number of issues cam up through the years eventually leading to the patriarch of Rome to proclaim himself "leader of Christianity" and rejected that he was equal. The four other churches stayed together and became what is called orthodox and Rome became the catholic church. Through this the Pope gained much power over people as both a religious leader and a social/ economic/ political one. The pope at times in history ran over a third of modern italy in the Papal states and had great political power in all of catholic Europe. That is until 1534 when the Protestant story starts. yes I realize that Martin Luther had his 95 point thesis ( yeah its 95, I used "90" before pardon the mistake) earlier, but this legitimized breaking away from the catholic church that Europe had never seen before. Why was this done? because king Henry VIII (the eighth) was not able to obtain a second divorce from the pope. So he made his own church. The story in regards to unity goes down hill from there with a variety of leaders popping up each with the "right" interpretation of christianity. ultimately giving us our 23,000 denominations of Protestantism, Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Not all of them were for power or political motives. But the two main ones in my opinion were. Have you survived this far? I know its a deadly long post, but why not...

I'll keep this to a brief question and comment. Why is is it in your opinion weird that Judaism, Christianity and Islam have the same origins? In a nut shell All three agree on doctrine up until the time of jesus. Then christians said jesus is THE messiah, Jews said no. Then a few hundred years later a later prophet named Muhammad (PBUH) claimed to be the last line of prophets and rejected the divinity of Christ. So yeah around the year 30 AD things start to stir... The first 4000 years were quiet!

The why does god allow things to happen is a deep theological question, a personal one as well. Some people just cannot fathom a "god" after something horrible has happened, they simply reject the idea he would allow something like that. So to quickly address that. We have free will to make choices, not sure how that works into god having a plan though... Really good question you asked.

In regards to the bible being very sexist, sexist is something that believe it or not objective. I won't go into it in-depth but some radical feminists actually consider feminism sexist because by having women reject the traditional females roles it is effectively saying having women's roles is low and that we should all strive to have equal male oriented roles, rather than appreciate and equate the importance of a good mother to that of a good CEO. So the whole bible has rape, incest, misogyny argument at best appeases the most shallow readings of the bible. That being said the bible does contain some pretty brutal stuff in Leviticus which was the book where the hebrews had their laws. Its funny though when Christians use verse from Leviticus as a sole proof for their arguments, because Christians are not required to follow Jewish Law! It also comes from a time when Hebrews believed in an "Eye for Eye" punishment rather than "turn the other cheek" and "praying for your enemies." So really it has very little place in christianity, I'm not sure why people use it.

For the Adam and Eve story, well again I think that is the least formal or in-depth understanding of the story. To understand the book it takes years of study...

And now for your numbered points...

1& 3 There have always been archeological digs that have turned up artifacts both supporting the bible and refuting it, I think of them both more as being sensationalized and really don;t lend anything to anyone. Those who are already religious will fight the counter arguments and those who already don't believe will fight the claims that these are proofs for the bible. So no one wins with these.

2. Now to go to TOK, just because it is similar to other creation stories around Israel does that mean it is fake or is it accurate? An accurate version of something that is true, and other groups have it right as well. Its similarity to other creation stories doesn't invalidate it.

And to repsond to the intelligent design: That is the Higgs-Bosn in a nutshell, the whole theory is insanely complex and it takes many years of study to truly understand it and work with it. You have to study all the sciences and other theories to truly know it. I used that as an example because it the same with the bible and other religious texts. one must study and learn many many subjects before having the knowledge to tackle the bible with a legitimate interpretation. i could try and refute the Higgs-Boson by reading an article on it shallowly. Does that make it any good? No. And yes you are describing how things happened with the atoms and compounds. but those are just processes and tools used in the making of something. Not necessarily the designer.

And why would I not make god difficult to understand? The largest, most complex being/conscience in the universe and you'd like it to be simpler than a fraction of the chemistry used in the making of this universe? if it were to easy to understand what would we gain from that?

To adress the bubonic plague, sure the bible didn't help the bubonic plague. Its not a medical text or a public health sheet with instructions of washing its a text to guide you spiritually. Which of course reflects in your other parts of "life" but it was never meant to be an end all and be all of science, math, history and geography. it also in no capacity prevents someone from studying science and medicine, which actually many pious people did in the ancient world. Funny enough the tradition of science and medicine founded in ancient Greece continued in the Orthodox byzantium and the Arab Muslim world. In was in the West taht they decided no science and now bathing. So its something cultural and political, nothing to do with religion or god.

Things only "change' in the bible because people change them and bend them. We could keep the same views technically speaking, but thats not convenient for someone who wants to use it for their agenda. With religion it really works well as we've seen unfortunately in history. try and imagine it with math. trying to start a war with someone because you claim 2 + 3 = 23 not 5. You would be laughed at. We know 2+ 3 = 5, religion however in its nature allows for great and legitimate looking interpretation. it is the mysterious nature of god that both makes interpretations easier to pass by and to allow people to fight over it.

tl;dr: You should give it a try, I can't pack all of that in one sentence! Pardon the trolling.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Luka Petrovic