Why don't you believe in God?

[Nabz]

Personally, I see no connection between intelligence and religious beliefs. It seems to me that those who are not intelligent try to prove to themselves or others that they are, in fact, intelligent by claiming they do not believe in God: 'my thought processes are more advanced than yours and thus I can see the faults in religions, which billions of others cannot see.' I have, though, known intelligent people that both believe and do not believe.

It also seems that some people do not believe because they want to fit in with what is common of the modern world, or simply because they don't understand. God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. We were created in His image, but we are not Him. Some people just seem to think that he is a man that is just invisible and living in the sky. All of those things are wrong, though. They also ask questions like 'can He create something so heavy he can't move it,' 'why do people suffer,' (which does relate to giving us free will, and is indirectly addressed in the Bible), and 'who created God, then'? These questions can't be attributed to Him, though. He is in a different world, He is a different being, and He is something completely unfathomable by the human mind. Yet people still try to fathom Him.

I do not believe because I need to, or because I want to, or because I have to, or because that is how I was raised (atheists are equally affected by culture or society when determining their beliefs, in many cases). I believe simply because I believe. That is just what I think happened... There is nothing more to belief. It makes sense to me, and I understand that God is not human, and that He can do anything, and knows everything. But no, we can't see him, as we lost that privilege after the forbidden fruit incident. And it is pointless to say 'why hasn't He shown Himself to me'? Why should he have to? That is not what faith is. Nobody can see Him until they die. This is something I accept, and it does not get in the way of my beliefs. I have never seen billions of people in the world, but I believe they are there. It makes sense to.

Religion doesn't conflict with science either. At least I have never found that it does. I am Catholic and believe what is written in the Bible, but I also believe in the big bang, evolution, and all else that has been proven with science. Some people say science and religion can't work together, but I see no reason why not. Maybe they just don't look at the Bible the same way (ex: the Bible says the world was created in seven days, but it also says a day to us is a thousand years to God, and a thousand years to God is a day to us, because time doesn't exist in Heaven. This can therefore be expanded to a day to God is equal to a billion years to us. Therefore, I see no reason why 'let there be light' could not be the Big Bang). Overall, I think maybe looking at religion from a different point of view, while not just dismissing it as something for crazy fundamentalists - who are not very Christian at all - may provide a better way of understanding it, and show that you can be educated and religious at the same time.

That is just what I believe. I'm sorry for the long post!!

The notion that atheists are edgy teenagers is a worn- out strawman. Furthermore it is faulty to compare how people become atheists as it is a negation of beliving in a god, and in most cases in religion. Every atheist belong to the same group, while every religious person belong to his/her own, separate from all other religions and atheism. You don't think that your upbringing have anything to do with you being a catholic of all the thousands of different religions in the world?

And sure, the bible can be interpreted to be compatible with science, but it have to with that religion will quickly become incompatible with modern life if it was taken literally. There is a reason that scientist do not look in the scriptures for answers to their quandaries.

Interesting discussion on the whole benevolent God as well. I think it is pretty evident that not stopping catastrophes and "testing" us through misery is a sign of something completely different from love, at least if you want to use the common definition of the word.

Someone that is christian: How come that hell have to exist? I mean, god is supposed to be all- loving and omnipotent, surely he must have control over if hell will or will not exist. He thus make an active choice in keeping it and letting those who do not get into heaven burn for all eternity. Doesn't that seem very flawed when he could just admit everyone into heaven regardless or just scrap hell and let people be dead?

1. I wonder why humans kill one another.

2. Don't tell me you're saying that no matter what a human does, he/she should be forgiven because we're all loving creatures...

3. Your definition of "reward" is rather absurd. You believe that someone who deserves a "prize" should be given the same price, as someone who doesn't deserve it, because we believe in "equality".

Edited May 17, 2013 by shad0wboss

[wjw]

Personally, I see no connection between intelligence and religious beliefs. It seems to me that those who are not intelligent try to prove to themselves or others that they are, in fact, intelligent by claiming they do not believe in God: 'my thought processes are more advanced than yours and thus I can see the faults in religions, which billions of others cannot see.' I have, though, known intelligent people that both believe and do not believe.

It also seems that some people do not believe because they want to fit in with what is common of the modern world, or simply because they don't understand. God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. We were created in His image, but we are not Him. Some people just seem to think that he is a man that is just invisible and living in the sky. All of those things are wrong, though. They also ask questions like 'can He create something so heavy he can't move it,' 'why do people suffer,' (which does relate to giving us free will, and is indirectly addressed in the Bible), and 'who created God, then'? These questions can't be attributed to Him, though. He is in a different world, He is a different being, and He is something completely unfathomable by the human mind. Yet people still try to fathom Him.

I do not believe because I need to, or because I want to, or because I have to, or because that is how I was raised (atheists are equally affected by culture or society when determining their beliefs, in many cases). I believe simply because I believe. That is just what I think happened... There is nothing more to belief. It makes sense to me, and I understand that God is not human, and that He can do anything, and knows everything. But no, we can't see him, as we lost that privilege after the forbidden fruit incident. And it is pointless to say 'why hasn't He shown Himself to me'? Why should he have to? That is not what faith is. Nobody can see Him until they die. This is something I accept, and it does not get in the way of my beliefs. I have never seen billions of people in the world, but I believe they are there. It makes sense to.

Religion doesn't conflict with science either. At least I have never found that it does. I am Catholic and believe what is written in the Bible, but I also believe in the big bang, evolution, and all else that has been proven with science. Some people say science and religion can't work together, but I see no reason why not. Maybe they just don't look at the Bible the same way (ex: the Bible says the world was created in seven days, but it also says a day to us is a thousand years to God, and a thousand years to God is a day to us, because time doesn't exist in Heaven. This can therefore be expanded to a day to God is equal to a billion years to us. Therefore, I see no reason why 'let there be light' could not be the Big Bang). Overall, I think maybe looking at religion from a different point of view, while not just dismissing it as something for crazy fundamentalists - who are not very Christian at all - may provide a better way of understanding it, and show that you can be educated and religious at the same time.

That is just what I believe. I'm sorry for the long post!!

The notion that atheists are edgy teenagers is a worn- out strawman. Furthermore it is faulty to compare how people become atheists as it is a negation of beliving in a god, and in most cases in religion. Every atheist belong to the same group, while every religious person belong to his/her own, separate from all other religions and atheism. You don't think that your upbringing have anything to do with you being a catholic of all the thousands of different religions in the world?

And sure, the bible can be interpreted to be compatible with science, but it have to with that religion will quickly become incompatible with modern life if it was taken literally. There is a reason that scientist do not look in the scriptures for answers to their quandaries.

Interesting discussion on the whole benevolent God as well. I think it is pretty evident that not stopping catastrophes and "testing" us through misery is a sign of something completely different from love, at least if you want to use the common definition of the word.

Someone that is christian: How come that hell have to exist? I mean, god is supposed to be all- loving and omnipotent, surely he must have control over if hell will or will not exist. He thus make an active choice in keeping it and letting those who do not get into heaven burn for all eternity. Doesn't that seem very flawed when he could just admit everyone into heaven regardless or just scrap hell and let people be dead?

I'm not sure if all of that was directed at me, but I never stated that God is omni-benevolent - although it is accepted that He is - and I also never stated that Bible should be taken literally. I actually stated the opposite, kind of. Catholics are taught to believe most of the Bible is a metaphor. I am not exactly sure what other denominations each believe, but that is what Catholicism teaches. The Bible could be interpreted a million different ways. That is just the way I interpret it, though, because that is what makes sense to me, and that is just what I believe. And I didn't say I don't think that the upbringing of someone influences their religion. I said I am not Christian just because my parents are. I believe in God because I see no reason not to, not because I was taught to believe in Him. Can you even be taught to believe in something? I guess that would be more indoctrination. Or you could force someone to say they believe in something, but you cannot force them to think it is actually true... But this is going off topic.

And I didn't really say people suffering is a test at all. I don't really think that. I believe that God has created humans to live their own life, and He has given us free will. You can see that people even in the Bible caused disasters. Cain killed Abel, Jonah was sent to Nineveh because of the poor choices and actions of the people, and eventually, the world got so full of crime and terror, it was flooded. God lets us do what we want. It's a part of being a human: we can choose whether to follow Him and spread goodness, or to deny Him and spread evil (I want to stress from fear that someone should misinterpret this that I do not believe that everyone who is not Christian is evil and commits crimes). And I don't see why he would reward those who don't accept Him as their Lord eternal pleasure and paradise... Eternal punishment is similar to normal punishment: a child does something wrong, and gets punished. The child is mad he got punished, and tells his parents he hates them. The child believes the parents feel the same way. Actually, the parents still love their child, but he deserved to be punished for doing something wrong.

I am not a deist, but I do think that God has given us free will, and shortly after has left us alone for the most part. I think He does watch us and hears prayers, but I definitely don't think that he is responsible for suffering in Africa, and He has no obligation to do anything. (Imagine a human trying to tell God what to do, or what He should be doing ).

[braindead]

If he doesn't do anything any more - after he gave us "free will", as you say - doesn't that mean he is completely and utterly pointless to humanity, besides to provide the less intelligent sects of religions excuses to commit atrocities with 'justification'? I'm not just talking about Al Qaeda and the likes, who point to their religious text when waging war on Western invaders, but groups like the Westboro Baptist Church, who interpret the Bible and God's teachings in a completely ignorant way. You say that you do not see any reason not to believe in God, which is why you believe in him... do you think that people murdering each other in the Middle East, dead soldiers' funerals being picketed and abuse thrown at bereaved families, all in the name of what (by your own reasoning) is a useless, inaccessible nonentity somewhere in another dimension, is not a good enough reason to deny the existence of a God?

Is it worth people maintaining "faith" at that cost?

Edited May 17, 2013 by braindead

[Nabz]

If he doesn't do anything any more - after he gave us "free will", as you say - doesn't that mean he is completely and utterly pointless to humanity, besides to provide the less intelligent sects of religions excuses to commit atrocities with 'justification'? I'm not just talking about Al Qaeda and the likes, who point to their religious text when waging war on Western invaders, but groups like the Westboro Baptist Church, who interpret the Bible and God's teachings in a completely ignorant way. You say that you do not see any reason not to believe in God, which is why you believe in him... do you think that people murdering each other in the Middle East, dead soldiers' funerals being picketed and abuse thrown at bereaved families, all in the name of what (by your own reasoning) is a useless, inaccessible nonentity somewhere in another dimension, is not a good enough reason to deny the existence of a God?

Is it worth people maintaining "faith" at that cost?

Oh so now people know what's going on in the world and they put the blame on a being, so called "God". Those wars, those killings, hatred, wouldn't have been there if "we" weren't ignorant enough to let ourselves get corrupted. People who murder each other must have thought "once" that they were going to "kill" someone.

[braindead]

If he doesn't do anything any more - after he gave us "free will", as you say - doesn't that mean he is completely and utterly pointless to humanity, besides to provide the less intelligent sects of religions excuses to commit atrocities with 'justification'? I'm not just talking about Al Qaeda and the likes, who point to their religious text when waging war on Western invaders, but groups like the Westboro Baptist Church, who interpret the Bible and God's teachings in a completely ignorant way. You say that you do not see any reason not to believe in God, which is why you believe in him... do you think that people murdering each other in the Middle East, dead soldiers' funerals being picketed and abuse thrown at bereaved families, all in the name of what (by your own reasoning) is a useless, inaccessible nonentity somewhere in another dimension, is not a good enough reason to deny the existence of a God?

Is it worth people maintaining "faith" at that cost?

Oh so now people know what's going on in the world and they put the blame on a being, so called "God". Those wars, those killings, hatred, wouldn't have been there if "we" weren't ignorant enough to let ourselves get corrupted. People who murder each other must have thought "once" that they were going to "kill" someone.

Dunno what's with your overuse of inverted commas, but whatever.

You can't even begin to deny that the continuation of the conflict (admittedly, not the initiating attack by the US) in the Middle East is driven strongly by religious sentiment. It is definitely the fault of misinterpretation of religion, and by extension, the misinterpretation of the idea of God, that innocent people die daily in that particular region - Islamist states are far more militant in their beliefs simply because their religious tenet tells them to be that way. Their belief in God leads to deaths. Do you see how I arrived at that conclusion?

I'm not entirely certain if you are being ironic, so I'll assume you are. Yes, of course, evil would still exist in the world, but it would be marginally less. No hatred of fellow humans based only on what people have learned from their religious texts, religious leaders, religious ideals, or in effect, 'God'. Killing will never be eliminated from our society - never - but that is no reason to simply allow the basis of some deaths (i.e. the Middle East) to remain, derelict, in our world. If nobody believed in God, that wouldn't have happened. The Crusades, thousands of innocents killed and raped, wouldn't have happened. You see where I am going. Are you saying that, because it's inherent in some peoples' nature to kill, that, "oh screw it, we may as well give them justification for it"? No, come on, that's nonsensical.

[Ezak]

@wjw Sorry, I should have made it clear that only the first half of the post was meant for you!

@Shadowboss So you are saying that because someone did not "win" given that winning is defined as picking the right god and following the right rules and the right denomination, that is, punishment for limited time on earth is ETERNAL suffering in hell, then god is not benevolent one bit and is indeed a very vengeful god. He really seems horrible if this is the case.

[Ezak]

Extending on braindead you might as well say that nothing have any effect on anything we do, so politics is pointless. It doesn't matter how much hatred, racism etc there are in this world, people will kill non the less for some reason or another. See where we are going with this?

Edited May 17, 2013 by Ezak

[Luka Petrovic]

If he doesn't do anything any more - after he gave us "free will", as you say - doesn't that mean he is completely and utterly pointless to humanity, besides to provide the less intelligent sects of religions excuses to commit atrocities with 'justification'? I'm not just talking about Al Qaeda and the likes, who point to their religious text when waging war on Western invaders, but groups like the Westboro Baptist Church, who interpret the Bible and God's teachings in a completely ignorant way. You say that you do not see any reason not to believe in God, which is why you believe in him... do you think that people murdering each other in the Middle East, dead soldiers' funerals being picketed and abuse thrown at bereaved families, all in the name of what (by your own reasoning) is a useless, inaccessible nonentity somewhere in another dimension, is not a good enough reason to deny the existence of a God?

Is it worth people maintaining "faith" at that cost?

Oh so now people know what's going on in the world and they put the blame on a being, so called "God". Those wars, those killings, hatred, wouldn't have been there if "we" weren't ignorant enough to let ourselves get corrupted. People who murder each other must have thought "once" that they were going to "kill" someone.

Dunno what's with your overuse of inverted commas, but whatever.

You can't even begin to deny that the continuation of the conflict (admittedly, not the initiating attack by the US) in the Middle East is driven strongly by religious sentiment. It is definitely the fault of misinterpretation of religion, and by extension, the misinterpretation of the idea of God, that innocent people die daily in that particular region - Islamist states are far more militant in their beliefs simply because their religious tenet tells them to be that way. Their belief in God leads to deaths. Do you see how I arrived at that conclusion?

I'm not entirely certain if you are being ironic, so I'll assume you are. Yes, of course, evil would still exist in the world, but it would be marginally less. No hatred of fellow humans based only on what people have learned from their religious texts, religious leaders, religious ideals, or in effect, 'God'. Killing will never be eliminated from our society - never - but that is no reason to simply allow the basis of some deaths (i.e. the Middle East) to remain, derelict, in our world. If nobody believed in God, that wouldn't have happened. The Crusades, thousands of innocents killed and raped, wouldn't have happened. You see where I am going. Are you saying that, because it's inherent in some peoples' nature to kill, that, "oh screw it, we may as well give them justification for it"? No, come on, that's nonsensical.

This is true, it is undeniable that religions has been used as an excuse for doing horrible things. That being said it is irrelevant as it is a cloak for the real conflict which is always, always a lack of resources threatening the survival of a group of people. I don;t care which conflict you pick but when you really look it at it you will see its really about economics. The communist vs fascist (politics), the christianity vs Islam (religions), and Ethiopians vs Somalis ( ethnicity) are just ways of dividing up people and choosing a side in an un-avoidable conflict. You are blaming a symptom by saying religions is a driving force here, rather than addressing the cause

Its also hard to avoid the fact that WWII the bloodiest conflict of the most epic proportions seen to man were about economics and people died for fascism, communism and the American way of life. No one said anything about their god being better then another etc. And the persecution of the Jews does not count as a crusade or a Jihad because they weren't persecuting their theology but the people and their genetic make up, with something the Nazis thought was "science" so go figure.

[Nabz]

If he doesn't do anything any more - after he gave us "free will", as you say - doesn't that mean he is completely and utterly pointless to humanity, besides to provide the less intelligent sects of religions excuses to commit atrocities with 'justification'? I'm not just talking about Al Qaeda and the likes, who point to their religious text when waging war on Western invaders, but groups like the Westboro Baptist Church, who interpret the Bible and God's teachings in a completely ignorant way. You say that you do not see any reason not to believe in God, which is why you believe in him... do you think that people murdering each other in the Middle East, dead soldiers' funerals being picketed and abuse thrown at bereaved families, all in the name of what (by your own reasoning) is a useless, inaccessible nonentity somewhere in another dimension, is not a good enough reason to deny the existence of a God?

Is it worth people maintaining "faith" at that cost?

Oh so now people know what's going on in the world and they put the blame on a being, so called "God". Those wars, those killings, hatred, wouldn't have been there if "we" weren't ignorant enough to let ourselves get corrupted. People who murder each other must have thought "once" that they were going to "kill" someone.

Dunno what's with your overuse of inverted commas, but whatever.

You can't even begin to deny that the continuation of the conflict (admittedly, not the initiating attack by the US) in the Middle East is driven strongly by religious sentiment. It is definitely the fault of misinterpretation of religion, and by extension, the misinterpretation of the idea of God, that innocent people die daily in that particular region - Islamist states are far more militant in their beliefs simply because their religious tenet tells them to be that way. Their belief in God leads to deaths. Do you see how I arrived at that conclusion?

I'm not entirely certain if you are being ironic, so I'll assume you are. Yes, of course, evil would still exist in the world, but it would be marginally less. No hatred of fellow humans based only on what people have learned from their religious texts, religious leaders, religious ideals, or in effect, 'God'. Killing will never be eliminated from our society - never - but that is no reason to simply allow the basis of some deaths (i.e. the Middle East) to remain, derelict, in our world. If nobody believed in God, that wouldn't have happened. The Crusades, thousands of innocents killed and raped, wouldn't have happened. You see where I am going. Are you saying that, because it's inherent in some peoples' nature to kill, that, "oh screw it, we may as well give them justification for it"? No, come on, that's nonsensical.

There will always be a war, either because of religion being in context or any other dispute whatsoever and what proof do you have that the people who're fighting these wars aren't using religion as a scapegoat? I never said the part about "nature to kill". The way you laid your previous post, it seemed that there should not be anything in the world like "punishment", which i argued about.

@wjw Sorry, I should have made it clear that only the first half of the post was meant for you!

@Shadowboss So you are saying that because someone did not "win" given that winning is defined as picking the right god and following the right rules and the right denomination, that is, punishment for limited time on earth is ETERNAL suffering in hell, then god is not benevolent one bit and is indeed a very vengeful god. He really seems horrible if this is the case.

the word "eternal" or "forever" can be interpreted in many ways. Like centuries ago, travelling from Europe, across Atlantic. Today, we consider going to places like planets, a couple of light years away, to take forever for us to reach there. These terms are based on our perception and may actually have a time limit which we're not aware of?

Don't count me as one of those ridiculously religious people who argue forever as i'm not one of those. However i do question our existence, our destination, our reason etc, so don't take me as being "ironic" or offensive in anyway.

[braindead]

I'm not saying that religion is the root cause of every war that's ever been, and I recognise that the human nature is to gear for conflict. However, what's the point in giving people the option to justify their warmongering by citing some book that nobody has any factual evidence to support? Would you accept the USA nuking your home country tomorrow, because in Lord of the Rings they blow up a volcano which is a metaphor for American nuclear superiority, and allow them to do it because you freaking love JRR Tolkien? Of course you wouldn't, can't you see how silly that seems?

I couldn't understand exactly what you meant in your first comment with all the " " being thrown around, sorry. Nonetheless, you gave the impression you believe war and murder will happen anyway, so why not allow them to justify these deaths by saying they were done by God's hand. Like I said, that's nonsensical - borderline perversion of justice.

@Luka; yeah, the pursuit of wealth is what drives basically every war. My point was that this pursuit of money has often, in history and modern times, been masked by excuses of "oh, we're doing it for God, man, trust us", deceiving the laymen of the country who don't think to look into it any further. Why continue supporting this system? I see religion as a derelict structure that we as a modern society no longer really need.

Edited May 18, 2013 by braindead

[Nabz]

I'm not saying that religion is the root cause of every war that's ever been, and I recognise that the human nature is to gear for conflict. However, what's the point in giving people the option to justify their warmongering by citing some book that nobody has any factual evidence to support? Would you accept the USA nuking your home country tomorrow, because in Lord of the Rings they blow up a volcano which is a metaphor for American nuclear superiority, and allow them to do it because you freaking love JRR Tolkien? Of course you wouldn't, can't you see how silly that seems?

I couldn't understand exactly what you meant in your first comment with all the " " being thrown around, sorry. Nonetheless, you gave the impression you believe war and murder will happen anyway, so why not allow them to justify these deaths by saying they were done by God's hand. Like I said, that's nonsensical - borderline perversion of justice.

@Luka; yeah, the pursuit of wealth is what drives basically every war. My point was that this pursuit of money has often, in history and modern times, been masked by excuses of "oh, we're doing it for God, man, trust us", deceiving the laymen of the country who don't think to look into it any further. Why continue supporting this system? I see religion as a derelict structure that we as a modern society no longer really need.

Well i used " " to criticize the words i was using. Not to mention that i love using these for the words i want to stand out which may be silly

[Luka Petrovic]

I'm not saying that religion is the root cause of every war that's ever been, and I recognise that the human nature is to gear for conflict. However, what's the point in giving people the option to justify their warmongering by citing some book that nobody has any factual evidence to support? Would you accept the USA nuking your home country tomorrow, because in Lord of the Rings they blow up a volcano which is a metaphor for American nuclear superiority, and allow them to do it because you freaking love JRR Tolkien? Of course you wouldn't, can't you see how silly that seems?

I couldn't understand exactly what you meant in your first comment with all the " " being thrown around, sorry. Nonetheless, you gave the impression you believe war and murder will happen anyway, so why not allow them to justify these deaths by saying they were done by God's hand. Like I said, that's nonsensical - borderline perversion of justice.

@Luka; yeah, the pursuit of wealth is what drives basically every war. My point was that this pursuit of money has often, in history and modern times, been masked by excuses of "oh, we're doing it for God, man, trust us", deceiving the laymen of the country who don't think to look into it any further. Why continue supporting this system? I see religion as a derelict structure that we as a modern society no longer really need.

What makes us any more advanced than societies before? Yeah we made some progressions but we made some regressions as well. Things don't change haha.

[braindead]

I'm not saying that religion is the root cause of every war that's ever been, and I recognise that the human nature is to gear for conflict. However, what's the point in giving people the option to justify their warmongering by citing some book that nobody has any factual evidence to support? Would you accept the USA nuking your home country tomorrow, because in Lord of the Rings they blow up a volcano which is a metaphor for American nuclear superiority, and allow them to do it because you freaking love JRR Tolkien? Of course you wouldn't, can't you see how silly that seems?

I couldn't understand exactly what you meant in your first comment with all the " " being thrown around, sorry. Nonetheless, you gave the impression you believe war and murder will happen anyway, so why not allow them to justify these deaths by saying they were done by God's hand. Like I said, that's nonsensical - borderline perversion of justice.

@Luka; yeah, the pursuit of wealth is what drives basically every war. My point was that this pursuit of money has often, in history and modern times, been masked by excuses of "oh, we're doing it for God, man, trust us", deceiving the laymen of the country who don't think to look into it any further. Why continue supporting this system? I see religion as a derelict structure that we as a modern society no longer really need.

What makes us any more advanced than societies before? Yeah we made some progressions but we made some regressions as well. Things don't change haha.

I mean there is no longer any need to pray to a God to cure a common cold (exaggeration) - science has progressed, our morals have progressed, a lot of things have progressed. The only possible regression I see is international relations, the massive rifts of wealth between developed and developing countries, pollution and overpopulation, etcetera.. everything else has gone forwards, right?

Well, I guess artists like Lil Wayne and 2-Chainz are regressions in culture, but you know what I'm saying.

Edited May 18, 2013 by braindead

[Luka Petrovic]

I'm not saying that religion is the root cause of every war that's ever been, and I recognise that the human nature is to gear for conflict. However, what's the point in giving people the option to justify their warmongering by citing some book that nobody has any factual evidence to support? Would you accept the USA nuking your home country tomorrow, because in Lord of the Rings they blow up a volcano which is a metaphor for American nuclear superiority, and allow them to do it because you freaking love JRR Tolkien? Of course you wouldn't, can't you see how silly that seems?

I couldn't understand exactly what you meant in your first comment with all the " " being thrown around, sorry. Nonetheless, you gave the impression you believe war and murder will happen anyway, so why not allow them to justify these deaths by saying they were done by God's hand. Like I said, that's nonsensical - borderline perversion of justice.

@Luka; yeah, the pursuit of wealth is what drives basically every war. My point was that this pursuit of money has often, in history and modern times, been masked by excuses of "oh, we're doing it for God, man, trust us", deceiving the laymen of the country who don't think to look into it any further. Why continue supporting this system? I see religion as a derelict structure that we as a modern society no longer really need.

What makes us any more advanced than societies before? Yeah we made some progressions but we made some regressions as well. Things don't change haha.

I mean there is no longer any need to pray to a God to cure a common cold (exaggeration) - science has progressed, our morals have progressed, a lot of things have progressed. The only possible regression I see is international relations, the massive rifts of wealth between developed and developing countries, pollution and overpopulation, etcetera.. everything else has gone forwards, right?

Well, I guess artists like Lil Wayne and 2-Chainz are regressions in culture, but you know what I'm saying.

But thats in your opinion, living in this age. Morals and ethics in of themselves are not something that is exactly unanimously agreed on. How do we know who is right? Agreed though that popular culture is a potential candidate for regression hehe.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Luka Petrovic

[braindead]

I guess we can't measure the more abstract stuff, but I mean stuff like the fact the death penalty has been vastly disregarded as a viable means of punishment, slavery has been abolished, racism is still an issue but not as huge of one, women are near level terms with men in many parts of the world, etc. And I don't think God had anything to do with it!

[Absolutely Positively]

I guess we can't measure the more abstract stuff, but I mean stuff like the fact the death penalty has been vastly disregarded as a viable means of punishment, slavery has been abolished, racism is still an issue but not as huge of one, women are near level terms with men in many parts of the world, etc. And I don't think God had anything to do with it!

I agree, but why were the death penalty, slavery, racism and gender inequality invented in the first place? I don't think that God had anything to do with that either...

[braindead]

I guess we can't measure the more abstract stuff, but I mean stuff like the fact the death penalty has been vastly disregarded as a viable means of punishment, slavery has been abolished, racism is still an issue but not as huge of one, women are near level terms with men in many parts of the world, etc. And I don't think God had anything to do with it!

I agree, but why were the death penalty, slavery, racism and gender inequality invented in the first place? I don't think that God had anything to do with that either...

EXACTLY! My personal belief is that humans make their own mistakes, not God - because God doesn't exist, and if he does he's completely useless anyway. That's what I've been trying to say.

[Luka Petrovic]

I guess we can't measure the more abstract stuff, but I mean stuff like the fact the death penalty has been vastly disregarded as a viable means of punishment, slavery has been abolished, racism is still an issue but not as huge of one, women are near level terms with men in many parts of the world, etc. And I don't think God had anything to do with it!

I agree, but why were the death penalty, slavery, racism and gender inequality invented in the first place? I don't think that God had anything to do with that either...

EXACTLY! My personal belief is that humans make their own mistakes, not God - because God doesn't exist, and if he does he's completely useless anyway. That's what I've been trying to say.

Thats if you believe nothing happens after you die (I'm assuming that is your belief) But people who do believe that their earthly actions will affect the status of their existence in the afterlife do have a concern and a use for god. Its just the choice they make in their free will in this life that affects what happens after. So the usefulness of a god who does not intervene in this reality depends on your beliefs.

[Absolutely Positively]

EXACTLY! My personal belief is that humans make their own mistakes, not God - because God doesn't exist, and if he does he's completely useless anyway. That's what I've been trying to say.

We make our own mistakes and we should blame ourselves instead of a God who might even not exist. I fully understand and agree.

But I also understand when someone who's an atheist prays to God when his child's life's on the line. You turn to the supernatural, God, because it's the only hope you have left and you need there to be hope. - Even if you know that technically God doesn't exist.

[Absolutely Positively]

Thats if you believe nothing happens after you die (I'm assuming that is your belief) But people who do believe that their earthly actions will affect the status of their existence in the afterlife do have a concern and a use for god. Its just the choice they make in their free will in this life that affects what happens after. So the usefulness of a god who does not intervene in this reality depends on your beliefs.

O'kay. So let's assume that an afterlife with heaven and hell exists.

If I'm christian and I don't believe in God - and God only, then technically I would end up in hell, right? Person X who has a different religion believes in 'their God' and therefore also doesn't believe in the 'christian God' and therefore would end up in hell as well. Person Y, who believes in a third religion and a third God wouldn't believe in neither the 'christian God' nor the God of person X and therefore end up in both hells.

Theoretically... Everyone would end up in everyone else's religions hell. - So yeah, I don't think it's really useful.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Absolutely Positively