robbydobby Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 one more question the slope of the graph should get me the general statement for the numerator right? and the general statement is just a fancy word for formula? how do i find the slope? its N = n^2 + n/2 but why is that over two their??? please help im sure i can figure it out with guidance Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBscrewed291 Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Ok, do you need to find the GS algebraically, or can you talk about patterns, etc. and use graphs to find it? Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbydobby Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 ibscrewed im no expert but from all of the posts that i have read there are multiple ways to find the GS, the easiest is graphing, you don't "need" to find it algebriaclly but if you want to put it in your portfolio it will do no harm as long as you explain it correctly. Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbydobby Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 ok of done a lot of work and spent many hours trying to come up with an equation for the denominator but i just cant . i feel like i am extremely close every method i try though. for example by using 3 points of the graph when r = 1 i used the substitution method to come up with a = 1/2 b = 1/2 and c = 1 when r = 2 i got a = 1/2 b = ~1.5 c = 3 and when r = 3 i got a = 1/2 b = ~2.5 c = 9. that gives me 3 equations but i feel i messed up because b jumped down 2 intead of 1 from r = 1 to r = 2. and c went from 3 to 9? should c be strictly triangular numbers. please help me i dont know any other methods i can try , and my teacher refuses to help me lol. im buying a $120 graphing calculator maybe that will help? idk Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixmaster Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 i have read this entire post..what does r stand for...what does "n" stand for...please help..please. MANY THANKS Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbydobby Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 r is the element in each row. n is the row number. i got no idea what En® is though lol. so examples 1 1 1 3/2 1see that 3/2 that is the 1st element in the 2cnd row. for some reason the ones dont count as an element so 3/2 is the first element 1 Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixmaster Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 r is the element in each row. n is the row number. i got no idea what En® is though lol. so examples 1 1 1 3/2 1see that 3/2 that is the 1st element in the 2cnd row. for some reason the ones dont count as an element so 3/2 is the first elementso i get that (3/2) is the 1st element, but how would we show that. Like, what would we call that --> r2?ONE more question, how amny graphs, i know its asking for the relation, but does that mean 1 graph for every row?or just 1 graph total??? Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbydobby Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 r is the element in each row. n is the row number. i got no idea what En® is though lol. so examples 1 1 1 3/2 1see that 3/2 that is the 1st element in the 2cnd row. for some reason the ones dont count as an element so 3/2 is the first elementso i get that (3/2) is the 1st element, but how would we show that. Like, what would we call that --> r2?ONE more question, how amny graphs, i know its asking for the relation, but does that mean 1 graph for every row?or just 1 graph total???no you would call that r1. i did 1 graph with 3 diff rows (3 graphs in one) but idk how to get a GS from that man im just as lost as you. How did you get a GS for the numerator did you use the arithmetic sequence formula or did you use the quadratic graph formula. im so confused and nobody is helping. its rediculus how does the arithmetic formula work for the numerators. why is d = 1 always one? shouldnt the ratio be changing. ive spent 4 days already looking at this crap and its pissing me off and making me hate math. Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixmaster Posted March 18, 2012 Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 lol same robby, like iv spent forveer looking at this..its due monday for me....for teh GS for numerators, i think i got down.... its quad. graph formula....i was reading the earlier posts,a nd that one guy before was super helpful, too abd hes not here now.but look, go to you calc, do stat-->calc-->quadreg...that gives u a formula for numerator, as long as u put in lists.and just a question, which should be easy to answer...the numerator pattern is obvious, +3,+4,+5,+6, etc.... but how would u make that more mathematicallike how wuld u describe that in a formula..... (r+1)??? then what wuld we call r??? Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbydobby Posted March 18, 2012 Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 lol same robby, like iv spent forveer looking at this..its due monday for me.... for teh GS for numerators, i think i got down.... its quad. graph formula....i was reading the earlier posts,a nd that one guy before was super helpful, too abd hes not here now. but look, go to you calc, do stat-->calc-->quadreg...that gives u a formula for numerator, as long as u put in lists. and just a question, which should be easy to answer...the numerator pattern is obvious, +3,+4,+5,+6, etc.... but how would u make that more mathematical like how wuld u describe that in a formula..... (r+1)??? then what wuld we call r??? ima help you out bro i got the gs for the denominator from a friend i just want to know how to get it i just copied it down but the GS is y = r^2 -nr + gs for numerator give you the gs n^2/2 + n/2 / r^n - nr + n^2/2 + n/2 thats for any number on the triangle.... i need to know how to get that and i dont have a graphing calculator and that guy isnt helping us . but maybe that will help you? i got 2 more weeks good luck man. p.s i typed in math toutor and the city i lived in google and toutors came up im going to try to get one for this portfolio. Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixmaster Posted March 18, 2012 Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 lol same robby, like iv spent forveer looking at this..its due monday for me.... for teh GS for numerators, i think i got down.... its quad. graph formula....i was reading the earlier posts,a nd that one guy before was super helpful, too abd hes not here now. but look, go to you calc, do stat-->calc-->quadreg...that gives u a formula for numerator, as long as u put in lists. and just a question, which should be easy to answer...the numerator pattern is obvious, +3,+4,+5,+6, etc.... but how would u make that more mathematical like how wuld u describe that in a formula..... (r+1)??? then what wuld we call r??? ima help you out bro i got the gs for the denominator from a friend i just want to know how to get it i just copied it down but the GS is y = r^2 -nr + gs for numerator give you the gs n^2/2 + n/2 / r^n - nr + n^2/2 + n/2 thats for any number on the triangle.... i need to know how to get that and i dont have a graphing calculator and that guy isnt helping us . but maybe that will help you? i got 2 more weeks good luck man. p.s i typed in math toutor and the city i lived in google and toutors came up im going to try to get one for this portfolio. ok, so check it robby http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=280906918638036&set=a.257570664304995.60713.148350915226971&type=1&theater...that i tihnk si the formula you just gave me, but like written out differently-->same problem as you, dont know how to get there, and not exactly sure what its for.....and fyi, u either need excel or a graphing calculator, since it asks u to plot the relations...o, and btw, i am planning on doing all this **** tomorrow, my final day..ima stay at home, and work on this like a bos...i better be done. Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbydobby Posted March 18, 2012 Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 lol same robby, like iv spent forveer looking at this..its due monday for me.... for teh GS for numerators, i think i got down.... its quad. graph formula....i was reading the earlier posts,a nd that one guy before was super helpful, too abd hes not here now. but look, go to you calc, do stat-->calc-->quadreg...that gives u a formula for numerator, as long as u put in lists. and just a question, which should be easy to answer...the numerator pattern is obvious, +3,+4,+5,+6, etc.... but how would u make that more mathematical like how wuld u describe that in a formula..... (r+1)??? then what wuld we call r??? ima help you out bro i got the gs for the denominator from a friend i just want to know how to get it i just copied it down but the GS is y = r^2 -nr + gs for numerator give you the gs n^2/2 + n/2 / r^n - nr + n^2/2 + n/2 thats for any number on the triangle.... i need to know how to get that and i dont have a graphing calculator and that guy isnt helping us . but maybe that will help you? i got 2 more weeks good luck man. p.s i typed in math toutor and the city i lived in google and toutors came up im going to try to get one for this portfolio. ok, so check it robby http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=280906918638036&set=a.257570664304995.60713.148350915226971&type=1&theater...that i tihnk si the formula you just gave me, but like written out differently-->same problem as you, dont know how to get there, and not exactly sure what its for.....and fyi, u either need excel or a graphing calculator, since it asks u to plot the relations...o, and btw, i am planning on doing all this **** tomorrow, my final day..ima stay at home, and work on this like a bos...i better be done. dude i completely got the GS for the denominator! (with some help) plot the element number (x axis on a graph) vs the denominator (Y axis) you will get a parabala. Find the a b and c values for the parabola and write them out in this form (y = ax^2 + bx + c) you will notice the pattern immediately! ( hint make sure on the triangle where the 1's are you put that as a fraction. like 10/10 or 15/15 or 1/1.) follow those instructions man. a stays the same b is the opposite of the row number and c is the numerator!!!! gives you the GS r^2 -nr + n^2 + n/2. remeber when plotting the first element is zero. so for row 4 points will be (o,10) (1,7) (2,6) (3,7) (4,10). thats for row 4! do row 5 and plot row 5's points you will see the same trend! now i wanna figure this out algebriacally Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixmaster Posted March 18, 2012 Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 ok robby, please dont take this the wrong way, and i 100% get it i you're like "no way", thats creepy. but i have a couple questions. 1. can i get your facebok/email? if u need help i got you there, and vice versa ..again, i totally get if you dont want to. 2.i get the example for row 4 you gave me. super helpful! so, that means we should have about 7 graphs then right? like 1 graph for 1 row?? doesnt that seem like alot? i knew "a" is a constant for both numerator ande denominator, but "b" is like (-1) from what you got, amd "c" is r^2. so i dont really get what u mean tho....AND, last question which might be stupid, for the GS y-axis, the denominator, u gave me row 4 as an example for this, yes? like u just gave me an example of the GS? ROBBY, THANK YOOU SO MUCH .fyi, you should start writing it, should be about 8ish pages long.fml. Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delan.elliot Posted March 18, 2012 Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) Refer to post 25 from this thread. Desy Glau basically lays out how you have to go about finding the equation for the denominator. It gave me all the necessary hints in the right direction.In essence:You will be using quadratic regression, as you already know.You have to find a model for EACH VALUE OF R.Since you're doing quadratic regression, you will have three parameters.Make a table of the parameters.Your job is to see how these parameters interact with the value of R. If you can do that, you'll have found the general statement.The early parts of this thread should give you everything you need to know. I'm completing the IA for tomorrow as well. It's not really that difficult once you get the statements.(hopefully all my instructions are allowable) Edited March 18, 2012 by delan.elliot Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixmaster Posted March 18, 2012 Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 Refer to post 25 from this thread. Desy Glau basically lays out how you have to go about finding the equation for the denominator. It gave me all the necessary hints in the right direction. In essence: You will be using quadratic regression, as you already know. You have to find a model for EACH VALUE OF R. Since you're doing quadratic regression, you will have three parameters. Make a table of the parameters. Your job is to see how these parameters interact with the value of R. If you can do that, you'll have found the general statement. The early parts of this thread should give you everything you need to know. I'm completing the IA for tomorrow as well. It's not really that difficult once you get the statements. (hopefully all my instructions are allowable) thanks elliot, and as in the case with most i assume, the answers are actually pretty easy to find, but for me, im stuck on the GS. and its ok, feel free to give me the outright instructions, even the answer straight out. but exactly! i know it is simple after the statements, but i cant really get the statements. Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixmaster Posted March 18, 2012 Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 OK, AND I HAVE A CONFLICT HERE.the posts in the 20s, help form desy glau, say x-axis= row number (2,3,4,5) and y-axis=denominator (2,4,7,11)yet my pal robbydobby said element number on y-axis and denominator on x-axis... Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dicksoneliza Posted March 18, 2012 Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 I was told that En® doesn't really matter.. Is this true or were they wrong? Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixmaster Posted March 18, 2012 Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 I was told that En® doesn't really matter.. Is this true or were they wrong?not sure eliza, not sure. Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
manney106 Posted March 18, 2012 Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) so ive found the 6th and 7th row easily but forming a general statement for En® has stumped me, how would i go about doing this? Does it need to be a set formula? Edited March 18, 2012 by manney106 Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbydobby Posted March 18, 2012 Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 mmm are you sure it's correct? I've just tried to work out the general statement of En(r ) and I got a quite complicated formula in terms of n and r. it did require some effort to get to the general statement. there are many ways to get to the GS but I myself used the graphical method (b/c I'm lazy...) but if you know how to find it using another method, go for it. I personally don't favour the graphical method (plotting a graph and finding the best fit curve) for a Math IA, though it's a use of technology The numerator part is very obvious and easy, right? So I don't need to discuss it. After you found the 6th and 7th rows, draw a new triangle if possible so you can see the patterns more easily. Remember that 1 is the 1st term in each row, and in this term r=0. When r=1 (the 2nd term from the left), get a table of the denominators and the n (n starts from 2). Then you find the GS for the denominator in terms of n. When r=2 (the 3rd term from the left), get a table of the denominators and the n (n starts from 3). Then you find the GS for the denominator in terms of n. When r=3 (the 4th term from the left), get a table of the denominators and the n (n starts from 4). Then you find the GS for the denominator in terms of n. Do the same thing for when r=4 and when r=5. You've got all the general statements in terms of n. Now your goal is to make them to be ONE general statement in terms of r and n. Hint: The general statement is in quadratic form (denominator=an²+bn+c) Tabulate r and the general statements. I am sure you will see some kind of pattern in the values of a, b and c. Find them with a similar method as before, Get a table of a and r. Then you find the GS for a in terms of r. Get a table of b and r. Then you find the GS for b in terms of r. Get a table of c and r. Then you find the GS for c in terms of r. So you've got a, b and c. Put them in the general statement involving n. You will get the GS for the denominator in terms of n and r. This task is fairly easy, though it seems complicated in the beginning. Good luck to all of you!! why does n start from 2 when r = 1 shouldnt it start from row 1 because the second 1 is actually a 1/1????? Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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