Does God exist?

[Daedalus]

Yeah... sorry about that. Got a little carried away in that post. But seriously, be careful when you talk about WWII. Lots of people have personal connections with it.

[Tilia]

So basically: this can't be argued about since there are no evidence on either side. Science and religion are as far apart as two things can be.

Or you could say that neither side has conclusive evidence, but one side has strong evidence and the other poor circumstantial evidence (or indeed an opposing opinion). Just because neither side can prove their case, it doesn't mean that neither side should make one.

I don't see why two things which are in a position to explain exactly the same sorts of questions should be cushioned against each other and spared from ever having to reconcile with each other. Not only because the questions they explain are important, but also because they would change a lot about the way people live their lives. I sometimes wonder whether people say they shouldn't be discussed because they challenge what people think and (as anything which would require a belief in two contradictory things at once should!) give people a headache. They may be far apart in some respects, but they definitely meet in the middle!

OK, I meant that religion is a matter of faith (now I'm not talking about the weird things in the Bible, just whether you believe in a God or not) and I would say that that can not be a matter of science.

[Center Field]

It should be noted that the existence of God cannot be confirmed or denied. There is no strong evidence (conventional evidence at least, as there are other, less defined motions used as evidence in debate) for either arguement. The nature of the concept of "a higher power," as it were, is so abstract and so undefined that rhetorically, if scientists ever discover a Grand Unified Theory of the Universe they could consider the equations derived from that theory to be "God." Therefore, I have to question the reasoning of such debates or discussions such as this...we can prove nothing. We know nothing of this matter save the opinions formulated in our minds.

I am editing this post to shed light on this quote and question:

"Christianity is the dumbest of them all, though. Jorge Luis Borges said that the great irony of the Christian religion is that it would take a miracle for people to believe in it.

Why would a God create fallible beings and then punish them for being fallible?"

The bible does not explicitly state that God punishes man due to being fallible. This is merely a misconception based off of misinterpretation (or rather lack of interpretation) of the text. The question posed is a result of this interprative issue.

The better argument about Christanity is the contrast between the testaments (which I would argue to be a cause of the aforementioned misconception, but I will refrain from digressing). Contextually, they have different teachings...or preachings lol

Ahh religion is a silly thing

Edited August 6, 2010 by Center Field

[Daedalus]

Bertrand Russell:

If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.

[Grumps]

I don't see why people still argue this. The whole point of faith is to believe in spite of obvious contradiction and the whole point of being logical is that you very quickly and very easily dismiss stupidity like this.

There are lots of cute little proofs and allegorical metaphors and that nice stuff, but I'd just like to say, that if god exists he is a perverted, twisted bastard with a sick sense of humour and a bottomless store of sadism.

[Magnus]

A God may exist, and may not. But my perception of a God, is that a God maybe created the laws of physics, but does not interfare with them later. The common beliefs like Christianity or Islam i find as complete bull****, because those make no sense in the big picture.

Personally i do not believe that a God exists, because that just makes as many questions as it answers. But it may just as well be true.

Edited September 13, 2010 by Magnus

[MinaDoan]

Does God exist?

Does that matter?

[Guest]

Even if he does..some people dont care...What we do need to care about is whether there is an IB god???

Will he help me pass Math HL?

[neamnemo]

yeah, it does matter.

[Heisenberg]

"yeah, it does matter."

Why?

[MinaDoan]

Different people have different views. Personally, it doesn't matter to me because I love God love people who love, right?!?

[Sandwich]

Different people have different views. Personally, it doesn't matter to me because I love God love people who love, right?!?

I think for Christianity that depends on whether you're Catholic or new age happy clappy Christian

My friend's grandma used to be a Catholic nun and whenever I go round she tells us stories from the convent, including the days they used to get up and go and stand outside Mosques and Synagogues so they could stand and pray together for a bolt of lightning to come down and smite the non-believers. Epic Having an ancient lady in a wheelchair encourage you to go and smite the enemies of god is a truly surreal experience.

It does make me glad that my school was of the happy clappy variety when it came to preaching at us. Although I guess it would have made mornings a little more interesting... smiting is always an exciting way to start the day!

[bahrain54321]

What do ypu think happens to your sole when you die? you just stay under the soil?

God exists. One God. Goes by the name Allah.

[Mahuta ♥]

Yeah, Bahrain, it's what we believe..because we grew up on that, AND we grew to slowly believe deep inside that those things are true..

To clarify what Bahrain54321 said, we believe that a human being..is a soul and a body..when we die, the body stay under the ground..and is eaten by bacteria..however the soul goes to where Allah is..whether in 'hell' or 'heaven'. The fact that a human is made up of soul and body which are seperate has been proven scientifically, as we believe that when you are asleep..your soul is not entirely in your body, which means you weigh less than you do when you're awake.

"Why would a God create fallible beings and then punish them for being fallible?""

God did not create these people as fallible beings, THEY chose to become fallible. God created these people, put infront of them two ways of life, one leads to being fallible..and the other to not being fallible. These people have chosen the way to be fallible.

There is not God that would punish those for being fallible when HE made them fallible..there's no such thing

[Grumps]

What do ypu think happens to your sole when you die? you just stay under the soil?

God exists. One God. Goes by the name Allah.

oh god epic troll. +9000

[Mahuta ♥]

"hat if god exists he is a perverted, twisted bastard with a sick sense of humour and a bottomless store of sadism."

Becareful on what you say, you are offending those who do believe in God, and you're not allowed to do that. You HAVE to respect the things others believe in, you have got no other choice. God means ALOT to some people, and you have no right to talk like that about him.

I can say you're a bla bla..bla..bla.bla idiot..but I am not going to, because I somehow managed to respect what people like you believe in. I expect you to do the same thing with those who believe otherwise.

"oh god epic troll. +9000"

No one made such comment about saying what you believe, so once again don't act all sarcastic about other people's beliefs, don't try to be cool, you are just giving a very bad impression on yourself.

Many people here believe what you believe..but NONE of them used the language you did, so you might want to change that language if you want to discuss this as the decent human being I know you are deep inside.

[Grumps]

I'm saying that it's a troll because it is an obvious throwaway account and it is unlikely he will stick around to support his point. The obvious (and comical) misspellings and were another indicator. His obvious ignorance in a very serious thread is another. The last line is also comical in it's obviously facetious ignorance, and by saying "Goes by the name Allah", who's choosing to bring up an inflammatory issue not related to the thread, inciting anger not only in atheists, but other religious people.

If my opinion offends you, then I am truly sorry. I just think that it's ok to have opinions that other people find uncomfortable if they believe in it and are willing to support it.

Edited September 16, 2010 by Grumps

[Mahuta ♥]

No one said you can only express opinions that people are comfortable with, that's not the point of discussion. I am asking you to not express your opinion in an offending way by using language such as the one you used.

His line might be ignorant to you, but trust me Grumps, my first impression on you, "God this person is so ignorant", so if you think he was being ignorant by stating something he believes in straight out, then you did the exact same thing. You think that that line is bringing up an inflammatory issue, because its so irritating, and you become so tempted to fight the person who said it, believe me, the way you express god's in existence, I felt the exact same way, however like I said earlier, I did not comment the way you did.

I am not asking you to only express things that are neutral here, no, express YOUR opinion, but do it without greatly offending others.

[Daedalus]

Yeah, Bahrain, it's what we believe..because we grew up on that, AND we grew to slowly believe deep inside that those things are true..

I like this idea, it sounds poetic, but doesn't teaching humans something before they are able to make rational decisions (i.e. indoctrinating them with religion before they are adults) not count? If somebody told seven-year-old-me that if I prayed lots and never masturbated then I would go to heaven, but otherwise I would spend eternity on a very, very very hot barbecue grill going insane, then I would probably believe them. And maybe the years of beating this sort of idea into my head would make me believe that I 'felt' it to be true... but keep in mind that in clinical trials 30% of people doing controls, that is, taking pills with no active ingredients whatsoever, feel a notable improvement in their physical condition. The placebo effect is a wonderful example of what we can make ourselves believe when we put our minds to it (and even when we don't, not consciously at least).

To clarify what Bahrain54321 said, we believe that a human being..is a soul and a body..when we die, the body stay under the ground..and is eaten by bacteria..however the soul goes to where Allah is..whether in 'hell' or 'heaven'. The fact that a human is made up of soul and body which are seperate has been proven scientifically, as we believe that when you are asleep..your soul is not entirely in your body, which means you weigh less than you do when you're awake.

This is a joke. I really feel this is a staggering issue. I feel like somebody just wrote: the fact that God answers your prayers has been proven scientifically. Seriously! What the heck is going on inside your mind? The existence of a soul has NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT been proven scientifically and for all likelihood never will. Your body weighs EXACTLY as normal when you are asleep. There are several things wrong with your statement: first, where does this soul-partially-out-of-body idea come from? Sounds like a joke. And you haven't cited your weight-when-asleep "scientific" study.

Think about it. Why would your soul way anything? I mean if we're going to invent a metaphorical fragment of your person that does away with all chemical explanations for biological responses, why would it weight something? How does it go to heaven or hell if it weighs something. Please, if you want to be taken seriously don't post things like this.

"Why would a God create fallible beings and then punish them for being fallible?""

God did not create these people as fallible beings, THEY chose to become fallible. God created these people, put infront of them two ways of life, one leads to being fallible..and the other to not being fallible. These people have chosen the way to be fallible.

There is not God that would punish those for being fallible when HE made them fallible..there's no such thing

This is the classic determinism vs. free will argument. For example, assuming your God exists, and he is omnipresent and able to do anything, as you insist he is, then wouldn't he know in advance what we were going to do? I mean, what goes towards you choosing your actions? Your nature, to an extent, the genes you are born with, sure, and mainly (I believe) the external influences during your lifetime. Also random things like whether the weather is good or not, stuff to do with luck, like whether your father was hit by a pulled that smashed into a rock and deflected and hit him in the throat, etc. But aren't these all under God's control? What external non-God controlled factor do you want to invent for explaining free will?

And please, please reply to this. If you are going to keep replying to the obvious trolls and ignoring people who make salient responses then this topic deserves to be closed for good.

[adnanmdyunos]

easy example from me. we see a table at our home. how the table can exist? there must be someone that invented the table right?we can see around us the universe that we sometimes less appreciate it by doing pollution. the universe also have 'someone' that created it. can something exist if no one that created it?