Honest words of advice towards pre-IB and IB1 students from IB graduate

[Ryoika]

It is such a relief because all of my exams are over now. I have never felt this relieved and content and FREE in my life.
Since I have enough time now, I'm going to spend some minutes to write on this forum what I really wanted to write as an
advice to some people who COULD be in the same situation that I was in.
I am not the best of the best IB student out there, and for some of you, this piece of writing could be really useless and would not even
value as a good advice because you could be lucky enough to not be placed in the situation that I was placed in.. so if you think so as you read my writing, feel free to press "back." For some of you, this writing can sound really biased, one-sided, with lack of evidence. This happens because I have based this "advice" on my own personal experience, and thus there can be some bias involved even though I have tried my best to take it away. Moreover, my "experience" works as the evidence, but it could lack validity, since it's not as solid and valid as, for example, a statistical information. If you think so and is offended by it, then just remember that I mean no harm in this. If you think that this writing is really biased, then don't waste your time reading it If you do not like reading a long post, then press "back." This advice is not the perfect one out there, but it could work as a good "advice" towards "some" IB students out there.

Since Grade 8, I was determined to join the I.B. program. It was unquestionable to not take the diploma program because
I was so confirmed that it would help my university years and there was also this issue of "prestige" in our school.
Thanks to peer pressure, you were thought as "dumb" or "stupid" or "brainless" if you do not take the I.B. diploma program, and due to all those teenage insecurities, there was no way that I wanted to be seen as dumb or stupid.
Taking the I.B. program in our school is like, well, an "honor," and there was no way that I was going to throw it away.
In Grade 10, the teachers and counselors kept talking of how good IB is and they tried to persuade that good universities won't accept UNLESS you take IB and that there's like 0% chance that you will pass first year
university if you do not take the I.B. diploma program.
Due to my unshakable faith in our school's IB, I did not try to question its faults, did not do enough research, and did not ask anyone
in IB of how exactly it is because I JUST HAD TO JOIN AND TAKE THE PROGRAM. This was the WORST mistake I made. I was vulnerable to peer pressure and propaganda.

Thanks to my lack of research, I realized WAY TOO LATE that our school's IB is one of the crappiest ever, compared to other schools in the province. This is not due to the faults within the IB program itself, but due to the faulty teaching within the school.
Half the teachers cared about our education (especially my SL teachers) and all they did was handing out notes without
enough explanation and depth, not even touching the base of the depth that a SL course should contain.
The quality of the education(teaching, but not the material of the IB program) was, surprisingly, far worse than regular classes. One of the teachers was literally proud that the highest score that she could guarantee us is a low score of 3~4. This is like a regular teacher saying that she's happy that her students are barely passing the course. Many of them were cranky as hell, and were very, very cruel.
I cannot still forget that demeaning look a teacher gave me when I asked for guidance on my Math IA. I felt like a pile of worthless trash.
I felt less than a respectable human being. That day was the first day that I cried because of a teacher (did not cry in front of her, thanks goodness). She threatened everyone that we will all fail, but I ended up getting 6 on that IA, thank goodness.
So many times I have seen students on the verge of crying due to all their rants, and one of our classmates was actually thinking of doing a petition to get one of the cruelest teachers fired (didn't work unfortunately).
Up until later in IB years, I thought that this was what IB as a whole really was. Then I came to this website and saw many of the posts,
and finally came out of my shell and realized that it is only our school that is the problem and that we are not getting the education quality (again, teaching, but not the IB material) that we deserve to get as IB students.

There were good teachers as well too, don't get me wrong; it was not like ALL IB subjects were terrible. I loved my HL courses (even though we did not get the education we deserved in History HL), and my English/TOK teacher was one of the best teachers that I have ever met in my years as a student. However, there were times that I sat down on my chair, looked back on my past, and regretted so many times that I should have done my research thoroughly. Enough research would have helped me to realize that universities are not as discriminatory as the counselors have described, realize that you can survive first year/all other university years without IB. If so, I would have taken certificates instead, throw away the so-called "you are stupid if you do not take the diploma" prejudice, win against the peer pressure, and thus replace all my crappy SL courses with regular courses that were 100 times better in quality. Believe me, people learned less in the IB language course, Math SL, and Science SL courses than they could have learned in regular version of those classes, thanks to ineffective teachers. The famous motto for Math SL in our school is, "if you don't get a tutor, you fail Math SL final exam." Math SL kids are getting tutored by HL kids, and these folks are saying that HL kids are way better at teaching than our Math SL teacher. One day, a TOC came to our Math SL class to teach Calculus. It was like a drop of pure water in sahara desert. That day was the day when I LEARNED Math.

I am really lucky because I am going into Arts and thus do not have to stress as much on Math (this might change because I could take a business minor). However, for engineering/science/business students, Math is crucial and very heavy-weighted. These people are worried as hell because due to lack of education received in Math SL, the probability of getting fail in Math class in university is very high. There are many rumors going on that taking Math SL without a tutor is a gateway to a "F" in first year university Math, and that regular Math Calculus course is a better preparation.

What was worse is that these teachers were really subjective in their predicted grades. People who were less liked by the teachers got lower predicted grades than the people who were phony but smart enough to use their social skills and fake smiles to get teachers' favoritism. Cheaters got scores of 7, thanks to favoritism, while hard-workers got 5s and 6s (even worse, 4s).
I had this person get like 5~6 on his REAL IA, do crappy on his exams (this guy doesn't study). But what he does is that he just talks a lot and uses fancy words to act as if he's interested in the subject. I, on the other hand, asked a lot of questions, got 7 on my IA, studied so hard and aced most of my exams. But I got a 6. He got a 7. The guy gets a lower percentage mark than me. It's a mystery and I am not happy with it. But I know that the teacher doesn't like me. She has "don't come near me. Go away" written on her forehead when I approach her to ask a question. I know that my personal involvement in this issue is a flag for bias alert, but similar cases have happened for so many of other students that the existence of bias and favoritism within predicted grades is unquestionable.

Thus, I think the examining system within IB is therefore, really justified and correct.

So, my point is this: do not be afraid to take the certificates. Do not be afraid to not take IB and choose regulars instead if you know that
regulars or certificates is going to provide a lot better educational path for you, with a higher quality.
I know that there are many of you who were than me and have recognized the possible faults within IB program in your schools. I know that there are people who are not afraid of peer pressure and those so-called arrogant "IB folks" who look down upon regular and certificates people because somehow being in IB diploma program makes you a lot "smarter" and "above" than regular folks.
I know that there are people who rightly believe in the wrongness within those arrogant "IB folks," who believe that school marks and two-digit IB scores determine how worthy you are. (They do not. No human deserves to be judged and classified based upon their academical ability because it is only a small part of what he or she really is. To borrow from Einstein's quote, "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid." But sadly, that simple logic did not get into the heads of some of arrogant IB folks in our school and out of our school.)

However, I also know that there are people who were as insecure as me towards peer pressure/ arrogant folks.
I know that there are people who are blindly trusting in the effectiveness of this IB program and are not seeing the possible
traps that the program in your school could hold. IB is indeed effective, but schools can ruin it.
I have seen so many of these types of people around me, and I do not want them to fall into the same trap I have fallen.
Let's face the truth, people. IB is not equal. I know that the IB organization tries its best to provide equal and global education in every IB school, but the truth is that it is not an equal education, and in every school, the way that IB is provided is different.
Two friends with same level of abilities could get into different IB schools. One person can come out from a really good IB school,
getting a very high score. The other person can come out from a really crappy IB school, getting a bad score. Of course, this can change if the latter one paid more effort. But considering that they had equal level of efforts, this is true.
Therefore, A RESEARCH BEFORE ENTERING INTO IB IS VERY CRUCIAL. You should not only ask people on web, but make sure that you ask MANY senior people of your school about it because they hold the MOST ACCURATE information of what IB really is like in your school. Ask the students doing the courses that you are going to take.
From here, I am aware of the possible argument that a harder IB program with ineffective teachers can actually help you to increase your independence and capability to do self-work and that taking certificates/regulars is an action of cowardice. If you are confident that you can manage IB program on literally on your own (self-taught) with useless, biased teachers and are determined to increase your abilities, then you are free to do so. Take the diploma program. If you are sure that IB Diploma will provide a better learning system for you, go and take it.
If you want to increase your independence and abilities to survive on your own, then this is it for you, even though you could have a bad school that distorts the good program.
However, I believe that there is a reason why IB does not allow the courses to be self-taught (with the exception of self-taught language), unlike AP. IB is difficult, and people need guidance because people with knowledge up to grade 10 are suddenly doing university material. There is a reason why there are teachers in the IB program.
If there are people out there who want good teaching to enrich your educational career, then take a look back, then PLAN.
There are many plans you can make. You can take partial IB, full IB (but with tutors as replacements for the ineffective teachers as mentors, as a suggestion, to replace what is lacking in your school), or all-regulars. It really depends on your situation, but do in-depth research and planning to make sure that you are prepared for university. Don't let others determine which educational career route you will take.


There are arrogant, ignorant people everywhere, and there could be people who look down upon you if you take certificates or regulars.
But you cannot let these people to influence and rule how your life is going to be.
I am not saying that every IB program in every school sucks. There are superb IB schools out there, with superb teachers and superb IB program. If you happen to be in that kind of school, thank the Heaven that you are lucky enough to be in such a school. (IB is not a bad program. It is a good program. And mostly the responsibility goes towards schools for turning this good program into a trash. I am not intending to criticize IB program itself here). In that case, then take the full diploma program because it will be a gateway and a useful guide to your success. However, if you happen to be in an IB school as worse or FAR WORSE than my IB school, then I recommend re-thinking your decision to take the diploma program OR deciding to take the whole diploma, but make sure you have enough tools to survive in the diploma program with some of ineffective teaching.
Research thoroughly and plan enough to make up a course outline of your own that will make your educational career a lot easier.
Take the good IB courses that your school holds, and throw away the bad IB courses and replace them with better regular courses.
If these IB courses happen to be ALL BAD, do NOT take the diploma at all.
OR take the diploma but make sure you are well-prepared. There are different routes out there. Choose the best one.
Do not believe the lie that not doing IB Diploma would make you fail getting in university and fail in surviving university years.
Believe me, I have seen so many who have not taken the IB diploma program at all and are doing excellently in their universities, and these universities are acclaimed universities. They are not the crappy ones.
If you are in IB Year 1 and realized the faults within your IB school, it is not too late. Change it to certificates or get out from the diploma completely or get extra help if you want to stay in the program.


I hope this writing was helpful for some IB students out there. I am wondering though, if this is okay because this writing could sound as a critique towards IB, and is it allowed at all in IB forum? But as I have said before, this is mostly not a critique towards IB but a critique towards the crappy schools that devalue it.
I have seen so many people suffering because of the problem mentioned in this writing. I saw people being way too-stressed due to taking a crappy program and I saw it influencing their mental health. Even for the sake of education, such depression/over-stress is not good. No one deserves such a damage.

p.s. The above writing was also for the arrogant IB folks out there, if you are reading this. I have actually read some of your outrageous writings that mock people getting less scores than you. You guys have written that people who get less than 34 are piles of trash, people who get 34~36 are lazy procrastinators who complain and do no work, and that IB is freaking easy and people who take it hard are stupid to the core. Apparently you getting scores 40+ is supposed to justify your arrogant attitudes and your words that viciously offend so many IB people out there. I am disgusted that such immoral people like you got those high IB scores because these scores worked as catalysts that heightened your disgusting pride.
As a person who have seen so many people working the hardest and the best they could and getting scores like 36 (which is a really good score. Universities actually give scholarships for getting such scores), I am disgusted at you to the depth of my heart and I see people like you as a sad example of stupidity and IGNORANCE in educational society.
I hope the background explanations above helped to clear out some of your ignorance.
And obviously, by this, I'm not generalizing all the high-score IB students as "arrogant" students. It just happens that this group of "arrogant" students had high scores. No more, no less than that. Hopefully, you guys did not make the faulty correlation .

Edited May 31, 2014 by Rika

[TykeDragon]

You had a lot of good points in there, but your last point kind of went to pot. Don't you think you were being extremely one-sided about the arrogant high-scorers?

a) not all high-scorers are arrogant and think lowly of people who score less than they do - I think we've agreed that the IB is a very relative experience, I personally would not think of myself as above someone who took HL Maths, Chemistry and Japanese and scored 36, as with that combination I would no doubt have scored less!

b) sometimes the people who score better are the people who deserve the better scores because they try harder. This is just to convey the opposing argument - it is of course doubtless that this is not always the case, and some people may naturally 'drift' their way to the top effortlessly - and could do so much better if they tried. But this isn't a reason to hate them. Yes, it is immoral for them to throw stones, so to speak, but casting stones back scores no points.

It is wrong to bully, and I don't blame you for being irritated with people who boast and belittle others. However, you're looking at it from a very one-sided perspective. For example, what of those who put down those who scored more points saying 'doesn't count because you took easy subjects, I did not' ?

Just food for thought - especially in an advice thread recounting tales of the IB, it is good to be slightly reserved in your judgements

[Award Winning Boss]

From your last paragraph, can you show me some examples of the people you're talking about? I've been here nearly 3 years and I haven't seen such behaviour regularly. If they're still up, I'll talk to whoever is bullying people about their scores because we don't accept that here.

[BenXu]

Many good points here but-

it has nothing to do with the IBDP program

why blame it all on IB

it's not gonna be easy if you have irresponsible teachers in ANY curriculum

[Ryoika]

You had a lot of good points in there, but your last point kind of went to pot. Don't you think you were being extremely one-sided about the arrogant high-scorers?

a) not all high-scorers are arrogant and think lowly of people who score less than they do - I think we've agreed that the IB is a very relative experience, I personally would not think of myself as above someone who took HL Maths, Chemistry and Japanese and scored 36, as with that combination I would no doubt have scored less!

b) sometimes the people who score better are the people who deserve the better scores because they try harder. This is just to convey the opposing argument - it is of course doubtless that this is not always the case, and some people may naturally 'drift' their way to the top effortlessly - and could do so much better if they tried. But this isn't a reason to hate them. Yes, it is immoral for them to throw stones, so to speak, but casting stones back scores no points.


It is wrong to bully, and I don't blame you for being irritated with people who boast and belittle others. However, you're looking at it from a very one-sided perspective. For example, what of those who put down those who scored more points saying 'doesn't count because you took easy subjects, I did not' ?

Just food for thought - especially in an advice thread recounting tales of the IB, it is good to be slightly reserved in your judgements

First of all, I never generalized all of these high-score IBers as arrogant IB folks, so I am confused on why the heck you would see that
I have committed the faulty logic reasoning of generalizing all the high-score IBers as arrogant IB people. No offense but
it is really irritating when someone tries to criticize my claims as "one sided" without completely understanding what I have written up there.
This happens a lot in debates, and it is never a good habit.
I know that many got the high score with a lot of effort, and some of these people are the nicest people I have met ever. Don't get me wrong.
It just happens that many of these arrogant IBers happen to have a very high score (or I doubt that they are just lying about it), but I never meant to use this
in another way to say that ALL the IB people with high marks become arrogant.
I feel very awkward that you saw this as a hate post towards IB people who got high scores.. because it is DEFINITELY not.
This is a word of critique towards the faulty school system that ruined the good IB diploma program and
towards people who got the scores in an unfair way (teachers' favoritism, cheating) and towards people who are very arrogant towards people with lower scores.
This is in no way a hate writing towards IB people who got high scores in a justified way.
My writing is not one-sided. It just happens that somehow your perception made it read it that way (haha, TOK talk)

From your last paragraph, can you show me some examples of the people you're talking about? I've been here nearly 3 years and I haven't seen such behaviour regularly. If they're still up, I'll talk to whoever is bullying people about their scores because we don't accept that here.

I haven't seen these bullies in IBSurvival, but in other forums that I was looking over while doing my EE.
I cannot find that forum unfortunately because I forgot the address
And some of these words are spoken words, and the examples, I have already mentioned them

Many good points here but-

it has nothing to do with the IBDP program

why blame it all on IB

it's not gonna be easy if you have irresponsible teachers in ANY curriculum

Did you actually read my post from top to bottom? Or did you actually read a few sentences and saw it as a post of critique towards IB DP program? No offense but it is a bit irritating when someone tries to criticize my claims without actually comprehending fully or attempting to read fully of what I have written up there. Happens a lot in debate.. and it's a bad habit.
"I hope this writing was helpful for some IB students out there. I am wondering though, if this is okay because this writing COULD sound as a critique towards IB, and is it allowed at all in IB forum? But as I have said before, this is mostly not a critique towards IB but a critique towards the crappy school system that devalues it. " = This is what I actually wrote.

This is in no way a critique towards IBDP program, it is a critique towards the faulty school system that trashed the program. I am not blaming this on IB and I have said that I value their efforts to have global and equal education in every IB school. It is a very, very good program for university preparation. Don't get me wrong.

"it's not gonna be easy if you have irresponsible teachers in ANY curriculum"
Okay. But let's admit. Being put in IB program with irresponsible and BIASED teachers (this bias is problematic, thanks to predicted grades) is a lot harder than
being put in a regular program with irresponsible teachers. It's like walking into a university without guidance, compared to walking in to a high-school without guidance.
That's why I am suggesting that people should look up and research more and choose what is best out there that their schools can provide. If every single subject is taught by a stupid, ineffective teacher, then I would ask, why stay there? Get out of the crappy school and go to a better school for a better education quality. Edited May 24, 2014 by Gaby
Please, edit your posts instead of posting one under the other. And please, calm down a bit, no one is attacking you.

[TykeDragon]

Where did you present the converse position in your argument against the arrogant high-scorers? You cannot criticise my response or feel justifiably irritated when your final argument was entirely unreasoned assertion, with zero evidence, and no counter-arguments. My response included careful consideration of both sides I can assure you - I can even bold the relevant sections if you cannot locate them.

I understand your response regarding the absence of evidence may well be 'I forgot where it is/it was in person' but this does not mean I should take your word for it. I do of course believe that you overheard these things at your school - but as a logical lesson in argumentation, there simply is no conclusive evidence. No offence, it's just that you label my response techniques as 'bad habit' but I have just evinced why they are not, and it is you in fact who has not understood my response.

Here's a valuable habit - if you can't provide any evidence for your statements, a persuasive technique is to raise the opposing view before showing why it does not undermine your own argument

[Ryoika]

Where did you present the converse position in your argument against the arrogant high-scorers? You cannot criticise my response or feel justifiably irritated when your final argument was entirely unreasoned assertion, with zero evidence, and no counter-arguments. My response included careful consideration of both sides I can assure you - I can even bold the relevant sections if you cannot locate them.

I understand your response regarding the absence of evidence may well be 'I forgot where it is/it was in person' but this does not mean I should take your word for it. I do of course believe that you overheard these things at your school - but as a logical lesson in argumentation, there simply is no conclusive evidence. No offence, it's just that you label my response techniques as 'bad habit' but I have just evinced why they are not, and it is you in fact who has not understood my response.

Here's a valuable habit - if you can't provide any evidence for your statements, a persuasive technique is to raise the opposing view before showing why it does not undermine your own argument

You just judged my post as generalized and then began rambling about how biased it was. Don't you actually see how fallacious that is? I can actually return those same words upon you. Where have you read the sentence "ALL HIGH-SCORE IBERS ARE ARROGANT" ?

All I have written is that "to all those arrogant IB folks out there, you getting higher scores than everyone else seems to justify your actions of arrogance to you." I have suggested a link between arrogance and getting higher scores, but this was no way a generalization.

It's like person A saying that "somehow you being really pretty and popular seems to have justified your action of arrogance towards people who are not as popular and pretty as you," and person B suddenly coming up and saying "your argument is one-sided because not all pretty and popular people are arrogant" and "actually, some of these kinds of people deserve their popularity" while A has never stated that ALL popular and pretty people are arrogant and NEVER said that none of these people deserve to get what they have right now.

The main intent was not to have this thesis "there are IB people who are arrogant" but the main intent was to give a word of advice to people who were in a situation like me.

This was a word of advice towards people who are struggling against peer pressure/propaganda to reject IB Diploma program that COULD be as faulty as the program in my school was.

This was by no way a persuasive essay to make you believe that there are some IB people who are arrogant. That was like an additional spice to already cooked meal. However, if the main intent was such a thing, I would have actually taken some of my time to lead you to the evidence. BUT the main intent was not such a thing. You seem to be mistaken on the very purpose of the post above.

Obviously you are not trying to generalize all of these IB folks as humble. If they were all humble, something like http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/high-school-life/939547-divide-between-ib-ap-honors-kids-and-non-ib-ap-honors-kids.html and http://life-of-an-ib-er.tumblr.com/ and http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.162718-International-Baccalaureate-IB-Students would not have come up.

And if you think that I actually made those words (people who get lower than 34 is... one) to humiliate the high-score IBers, then I am very offended that you thought me as such a base person who would actually stoop to a lower level of lying. I'm actually thinking that maybe I should catch a recording of them talking like that and send them to you, if you want it so much due to your belief in my lack of logic and validity.

Honestly, it was not a debate but an advice. The level of evidence you have mentioned would be fitting for a debate on "Are IB students arrogant?" You are going wayyyy off topic here. It was just a talk of frustration on those people who are arrogant enough to debase the people who have gotten lower scores. Critique was the main purpose, not the attempt to prove the existence of those to whom the critique is targeted to.

You are not personally attached to the p.s. I attached, or do you? As one of high-score IBers yourself, you have nothing to complain about as long as you are not guilty of such arrogance and bigotry.

Edited May 24, 2014 by Rika

[TykeDragon]

Of course I am not responsible for any 'bigotry,' and I don't answer to you for it anyway, I can find it a misguided opinion without being guilty of it myself. Freedom of speech would dictate that I would be perfectly within my rights to be proud of my score, just as it dictates that you may stress your opinions - this is why this debate is occurring, and this is how we resolve misunderstandings or support our opinions to convince others. Obviously, I would not belittle others, and I do believe it would be immoral. I shall simplify my reasoning for finding your argument one-sided. It was not because you said 'all high scorers are arrogant.' If this is your line of response, your argument skills lack maturity and cannot derive the implications of arguments, only read it literally. Of course not, I did not claim to have seen this, I did not even infer it from your hostile attitude towards 'high-scorers' - people who don't score highly are equally capable of being insulting!! It is because you ONLY targeted this set of individuals, AND you did not admit the counter that others can do it. Furthermore, you did not consider that these people are NOT belittling others if they are merely proud of their score, even to the point of being slightly boastful to others. It is possible. Failing to distinguish between finer points such as this renders your argument less convincing, and indeed, more one-sided.

I did not say I needed your evidence - seems you did not read this part. I pointed out that I believed you, but arguments in general without evidence are less compelling, if at all persuasive. I believe and agree with you, you are getting defensive after missing my point. I duly note your point that it was not your main intent - I fully accept that - but when it was commented on, instead of clarifying that it was not your main point therefore you did only mean it to be a minor opinion on the side, you are the one who has evidently taken offence and written a lot more in defence of it. I am sorry if you are offended, but you are mistakenly reproachful - I did not at all accuse you of 'lying to better your point.'

Also, my post was not generalised. I focused on one aspect of your post, I did not generalise the entire thing. According to your retort, I am not allowed to respond to one point without responding to it all. Well, I think that would make debate and analysis a very tedious matter if we had to abide by this rule! Moreover, saying 'the main purpose was to critique, not to prove the existence...' is not a good approach, I'm afraid. Imagine how that would hold up in a court of law - 'my main purpose is to say he's guilty, not prove why!' The two go hand-in-hand. Ergo, I'll assume for the sake of your argument that you meant to say 'my main purpose was to give advice in this post, the finish was just my frustrated opinion.'

Lastly and speaking of which, I don't think I'm getting 'way off topic' - I'm responding to an issue I disagreed with in the original post. Would you not say that in a post that was otherwise a lengthy offering of 'advice to future IB students,' that a random attack at the end saying 'oh and I hate high-scorers who belittle others' was off-topic yourself? (See, I'm not generalising the whole thing as an anti-high scorers essay!!!)

[veregudmen]

You make some very valid points, regarding doing research before signing up for the IB and not letting peer pressure affect subject and course choices.

Honestly though, your post doesn't seem to be criticising the IB at all; rather, it looks more like a rant about your school. The teachers, their biased nature, are not exactly faults with the program but with the school. It doesn't appear to be a critique of a school system; rather, just a rant about a ****ty school.

On a side note, I completely disagree with the quote from Einstein. People are not born equal, in status or ability. While it does stand to reason that people may be good at different things, and may have their own 'niche' skills, it also stands to reason that there are people who are quite literally good for nothing.

In any case I know too many people who are absolutely pathetic at everything to believe the statement. Moreover, people use it as an excuse for their failures when the hard truth is they are lazy.

[Ryoika]

Of course I am not responsible for any 'bigotry,' and I don't answer to you for it anyway, I can find it a misguided opinion without being guilty of it myself. Freedom of speech would dictate that I would be perfectly within my rights to be proud of my score, just as it dictates that you may stress your opinions - this is why this debate is occurring, and this is how we resolve misunderstandings or support our opinions to convince others. Obviously, I would not belittle others, and I do believe it would be immoral. I shall simplify my reasoning for finding your argument one-sided. It was not because you said 'all high scorers are arrogant.' If this is your line of response, your argument skills lack maturity and cannot derive the implications of arguments, only read it literally. Of course not, I did not claim to have seen this, I did not even infer it from your hostile attitude towards 'high-scorers' - people who don't score highly are equally capable of being insulting!! It is because you ONLY targeted this set of individuals, AND you did not admit the counter that others can do it. Furthermore, you did not consider that these people are NOT belittling others if they are merely proud of their score, even to the point of being slightly boastful to others. It is possible. Failing to distinguish between finer points such as this renders your argument less convincing, and indeed, more one-sided.

I did not say I needed your evidence - seems you did not read this part. I pointed out that I believed you, but arguments in general without evidence are less compelling, if at all persuasive. I believe and agree with you, you are getting defensive after missing my point. I duly note your point that it was not your main intent - I fully accept that - but when it was commented on, instead of clarifying that it was not your main point therefore you did only mean it to be a minor opinion on the side, you are the one who has evidently taken offence and written a lot more in defence of it. I am sorry if you are offended, but you are mistakenly reproachful - I did not at all accuse you of 'lying to better your point.'

Also, my post was not generalised. I focused on one aspect of your post, I did not generalise the entire thing. According to your retort, I am not allowed to respond to one point without responding to it all. Well, I think that would make debate and analysis a very tedious matter if we had to abide by this rule! Moreover, saying 'the main purpose was to critique, not to prove the existence...' is not a good approach, I'm afraid. Imagine how that would hold up in a court of law - 'my main purpose is to say he's guilty, not prove why!' The two go hand-in-hand. Ergo, I'll assume for the sake of your argument that you meant to say 'my main purpose was to give advice in this post, the finish was just my frustrated opinion.'

Lastly and speaking of which, I don't think I'm getting 'way off topic' - I'm responding to an issue I disagreed with in the original post. Would you not say that in a post that was otherwise a lengthy offering of 'advice to future IB students,' that a random attack at the end saying 'oh and I hate high-scorers who belittle others' was off-topic yourself? (See, I'm not generalising the whole thing as an anti-high scorers essay!!!)

"it from your hostile attitude towards 'high-scorers' - people who don't score highly are equally capable of being insulting!!"

=You should restate this as my hostile attitude towards "high scorers who are arrogant." Again, the comments like that you make has led me to consider the fact that you are seeing me as this hate-person who generalized all high-IB scorers as arrogant IB folks and has this innate hostility towards high IB people, which, as I have already stated multiple times, is not true. My best friend happens to have 1 point higher than your point of 40, and if I have this "hostile attitude towards 'high scorers," I would not have her as one of my closest friends.

But I should apologize that I did not state that non-high scorers could also be arrogant. However, I think you should remember me saying that

this was supposed to be an additional "spice." It was not the main point of argument, and I would actually have done this if this was the main point of argument.

It was just meant to be a side note. Also, the truth is that I have not actually seen non-high scorers being extremely arrogant. I could not lie, but again, I should have stated that it "could" be that low-scorers are also arrogant. However, thanks to your words of valuable criticism, I did state some comments that can be judged as counter-claims in my replies, so thanks to your great skepticism and logic to criticize on an additional side-note that was supposed to be casual, opinionated, from my personal experience, and never loaded with perfect evidence, reasoning, and counters, I did so as you "would" have wanted.

The words in p.s. section were targeted towards the specific individuals that I have seen and heard on web, and they all happened to have high scores.

To narrow my point and make my p.s. section as short as possible (because p.s. section is never meant to be longer than the rest of the writing, and if I actually had to defend them with counters and evidence, it would have been gotten longer than the rest of the writing and it would actually have been better to write TWO SEPARATE POSTS, which was not my intention at all.)I targeted attack words towards them, but to you, my attack is devalued because I did not count the counters.

So, from now on, when people criticize others for their misbehaviors, the words should be put up as these:

White supremacists are blameworthy for their racism. These people should be punished for their misbehavior.

= This is a very wrong and illogical criticism because obviously, there are white people who are not supremacists.

Therefore, every time a person tries to blame others for the racism or any other kind of wrongness, we should say...

"White supremacists are blameworthy for their racism. These people should be punished for their misbehavior. However, I should also counter that there are white people who are not racists."

"Black gangs have erupted and ruined our town today. They are blameworthy for their crimes. However, I should also counter that there are black people who are not members of the gangs."

"Fascist leaders are blameworthy for the ruin of their nations. However, I should also counter that there were leaders who were not Fascists. There were communist, liberal, and many other types of leaders that belonged in different areas of politics."

How complete are these arguments! You should love to see these types of sentences with counter at every end

whenever you read a newspaper, despite how tiresome it tends to get!

"that these people are NOT belittling others if they are merely proud of their score, even to the point of being slightly boastful to others."

If you are a person who got a score of 34, and you are talking to your friend because you got a scholarship from a university that you were attending to. Then suddenly, your friend remarks:

"People who get less than 34 are piles of trash, people who get 34~36 are lazy procrastinators who complain and do no work."

How would you feel, after working so hard and getting score of 34, and believing that you have worked hard and deserve this score?

I don't know why you would not see this as an act of belittling, because it obviously is. If you do not, you need to have your empathy ability checked. Don't you see that action of boasting derives from your intention to have yourself as valued more worthy than other people? Isn't that,

then, an action of belittling?

"I did not say I needed your evidence - seems you did not read this part. "

Yes, you did not say that you need my evidence, but you criticized me for lacking evidence. If you criticize someone for lacking an evidence, then you are asking for it.

" I duly note your point that it was not your main intent - I fully accept that - but when it was commented on, instead of clarifying that it was not your main point therefore you did only mean it to be a minor opinion on the side, you are the one who has evidently taken offence and written a lot more in defence of it. I am sorry if you are offended, but you are mistakenly reproachful - I did not at all accuse you of 'lying to better your point.'"

Sorry for misinterpreting your post, but after all the criticisms from you for lack of logic and evidence and your interpretation of my post as an anti-high-scorer post by focusing on a p.s. section that was supposed to be casual, it was very easy to see it as an offence. Read your first reply and your next reply again if you are not understanding this point.

Your words were slightly derogatory, and I could actually sense that you are taking the offense too because you would not have used those terms if you were not offended. It's not only me who is blameworthy here.

Same goes for you too. But again, you will counter this, saying that it is only me and not you, so I will quit here No need to get bitter on this.

I did apologize, so you don't need to counter this.

"Also, my post was not generalised. I focused on one aspect of your post, I did not generalise the entire thing. According to your retort, I am not allowed to respond to one point without responding to it all. "

Of course, your post was not generalized but you did accuse me of generalization. This is what you said:

"a) not all high-scorers are arrogant and think lowly of people who score less than they do - I think we've agreed that the IB is a very relative experience,"

=If you actually thought of my post as non-generalization post that do not generalize high-scorers, you would not have written this comment.

And to add more, you said:

"it is of course doubtless that this is not always the case, and some people may naturally 'drift' their way to the top effortlessly - and could do so much better if they tried. But this isn't a reason to hate them. Yes, it is immoral for them to throw stones, so to speak, but casting stones back scores no points."

This was the sentence that made me to think that you are seeing my post as a hate comment towards high-scorers, while it was a critique towards arrogant high scorers. Say the same comment to the people who have written critiques towards child rapists and see what kind of reaction you would get. People need to get criticism and punishments when they deserve them, and it is not meaningful to say that they are words of hatred. If I say those same words towards a person who was bitter because she happened to be a victim of cheating by another student, while she was criticizing the cheater, then I would have my reputation ruined.

"Also, my post was not generalised. I focused on one aspect of your post, I did not generalise the entire thing. According to your retort, I am not allowed to respond to one point without responding to it all. Well, I think that would make debate and analysis a very tedious matter if we had to abide by this rule! Moreover, saying 'the main purpose was to critique, not to prove the existence...' is not a good approach, I'm afraid. Imagine how that would hold up in a court of law - 'my main purpose is to say he's guilty, not prove why!' The two go hand-in-hand. Ergo, I'll assume for the sake of your argument that you meant to say 'my main purpose was to give advice in this post, the finish was just my frustrated opinion.'

I never really accused you of generalization (yes, there's this comment of "you are not generalizing all of these IB folks as humble?" but the negative here shows that I did not really believe in this at all. Of course, such logical thinker like you wouldn't believe in such foolish generalization!) And I have never said that you are not allowed to respond to one point without responding to it all although it seems really tedious for you to rant on the side-note "p.s." of this post, a "p.s." that was never supposed to be complete with all the counters and what-not because it was not the main centre of the post. Again, it was the additional "spice" to an already cooked meal. For example, let's say that there's this essay post with a p.s. "I despise popular people who are mean to other people. Those people need to be criticized." Obviously, you cannot attack this person for lacking counters (that there are popular people who are not mean) and for having hate comment and for being incomplete with lack of evidence (are there mean popular people in your school? Can you prove their existence?) because it was just a casual p.s, for heaven's sake. Living in this kind of manner, of even criticizing a p.s. that was supposed to be light-weighted in evidence and was never meant to be an argument, would be so tiresome.

Your comparison is really not a suitable comparison. Let me put up a better one.

A: "I believe that some white racists in our school are worthy to be blamed because racism is unethical."

B: "Your argument is biased and illogical because you haven't proven the existence of these white racists in your school. It lacks evidence. It is an one-sided argument."

=See my point here? A's purpose was to put up a critique towards these kinds of people, but B is stating things that are really irrelevant, because from the beginning, A's purpose was not to argue, but to criticize. That's why I have said you are going a bit off-topic.

"I'll assume for the sake of your argument that you meant to say 'my main purpose was to give advice in this post, the finish was just my frustrated opinion.'"

Frustrated, yes, because I had to suffer for 2 years in that school system that doesn't deserve the title "IB school." Opinion, yes, because advices are contained of opinions and they tend to be subjective. This is the reason why I have said that my advice might not be the best advice for everyone. But the way you have worded it there shows your intention to devalue my post. Again, I should apologize for taking offense that is non-existent, according to your words.

"Lastly and speaking of which, I don't think I'm getting 'way off topic' - I'm responding to an issue I disagreed with in the original post. Would you not say that in a post that was otherwise a lengthy offering of 'advice to future IB students,' that a random attack at the end saying 'oh and I hate high-scorers who belittle others' was off-topic yourself? (See, I'm not generalising the whole thing as an anti-high scorers essay!!!)"

You are indeed going way off topic.

This is basically what you have done.

A: School system that causes lack of quality in education needs to be blamed. p.s. The mean white students in the school also contributes to the horrible circumstances in our school. They should be ashamed of themselves.

B: White students who are mean?! You are very one-sided. There are white people who are very kind-hearted! Also, you need to have evidence that backs up that there are mean white students in your school because your argument, then is unfounded in lack of evidence. You need to also consider the fact that there could be white people who are slightly boastful of themselves and do not mean any offense. You also need to consider the fact that there are Asians who are mean and you also need to counter the fact that those white students could actually improve the quality of your school.

(P.S. Sorry for keep using this "white kid" example. They are for example use only, it's not used as words of attack towards any groups.)

" Would you not say that in a post that was otherwise a lengthy offering of 'advice to future IB students,' that a random attack at the end saying 'oh and I hate high-scorers who belittle others' was off-topic yourself? (See, I'm not generalising the whole thing as an anti-high scorers essay!!!)""

Wow, that was the reason why I put it in P.S. SECTION!! FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE!

Isn't p.s. section supposed to be meant for comments that go a little off topic than the main topic of the writing itself? Isn't that a reason for purpose of the p.s. section? Am I supposed to be blamed for placing an off-topic writing in p.s. section, which is supposed to be there for off-topic writing? Didn't I state multiple times that

it was supposed to be additional spice to an already cooked meal?

Isn't your writing that rambles on about an off-topic p.s. section already off topic, then?

The kind of generalization that I considered that you were accusing me of was not that kind of generalization. It was the kind of generalization in which you saw me as a

student hostile towards all high-scorers just because of my words of criticism and attack towards arrogant IB people who happen to be mostly high scorers in my school, and out of school, from my experience (although I acknowledge the fact that it comes out of my surroundings and it does not apply to other people out there. A person could have met the arrogant IB people as people with lowest IB scores).

Again, I repeat, this is not an attack towards high-scorers, but towards IB people who happen to be very arrogant, whether they have high scores or not.

I have NOTHING against people who have gotten high-scores.

P.S. I don't really see the point of arguing back and forward here on a small P.S. aspect of my writing that was supposed to be really one-sentence word of frustrated critique.

I am not going to waste my time replying to your replies because it is all going to be bitter with same words getting repeated, so you should also stop replying to

my replies from now on because you can really spend that time to do something more worthwhile, like studying or working. If you reply, I will acknowledge it as your intention to actually start up a useless fight.

I'm sorry for misinterpreting your replies as offensive, and if some of my words happen to be offensive to you, then I apologize again.

Sigh....

Edited May 26, 2014 by Rika

[Ryoika]

You make some very valid points, regarding doing research before signing up for the IB and not letting peer pressure affect subject and course choices.

Honestly though, your post doesn't seem to be criticising the IB at all; rather, it looks more like a rant about your school. The teachers, their biased nature, are not exactly faults with the program but with the school. It doesn't appear to be a critique of a school system; rather, just a rant about a ****ty school.

On a side note, I completely disagree with the quote from Einstein. People are not born equal, in status or ability. While it does stand to reason that people may be good at different things, and may have their own 'niche' skills, it also stands to reason that there are people who are quite literally good for nothing.

In any case I know too many people who are absolutely pathetic at everything to believe the statement. Moreover, people use it as an excuse for their failures when the hard truth is they are lazy.

I am not intending to criticize IB itself, and if you actually saw this as a critique towards IBDP that has failed to do so, obviously you haven't read

the whole post because I did say down there that this is not meant to be a critique towards IBDP.

What difference is there between school "system" and schools themselves? The faulty system within the school is causing the bad teachers to stay

in their classes despite all the complaints from the students. The faulty school system has allowed bias and cheating to slip in easily, mutating the

academic honesty in the school. Of course, the school system is blameworthy. It is not a rant.

There are sh**** schools everywhere due to the shi**** systems, and thus those need to be criticized and people need to be warned against the

possible chaos they might find in IB due to the schools that could possibly be bad. Why is it a rant? The word "rant" devalues my post above, if that was your intention.

If you are confused on the difference between bad school systems and schools, take a look at this. This is happening in our province, and it's negatively affecting so many students, even I.B. students. Grade 11s this year cannot do their Group 4 project, thanks to this amazing strike.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/05/20/b-c-teachers-escalate-to-phase-2-job-action-rotating-strikes-start-monday/

People do indeed have different set of abilities and talents.

Obviously, a person who is bad at math can excel at music and vice versa can go for person B. Thus, if you ask a fish (person B) to climb a tree (doing good at music),

and if the fish struggles to do so, you can't really mock the person B for his failure because people have different set of abilities. This doesn't mean that

it is impossible to overcome these difficulties. With enough effort, such challenges can be overcome. But we cannot really mock and criticize the people that they are stupid for not excelling at areas that they are "supposed" to excel, such as Math. We cannot dare use abilities as a reason to classify and judge the worth of a person.

That was my point for using the quote. Academic ability should never be a reason to see yourself higher than the person near you. People all deserve equal respect as human beings. That was my point, and if you think otherwise, then I have nothing to say. I guess you could be one of those people who sees a person near you getting worse score than you do and smile upon your triumph and see it as a sign that you are worth highly than the person next to you, making your rank higher than that person. It is inhumane, in my perspective, but in your point of view, it could be moral. Notice that I'm using a word "could"? I'm not marking you as this kind of person, I'm just putting forward a possibility.

People have their own innate talents and abilities, but the innate talent and abilities do not define how their future could be weaved out.

A person "good for nothing," as you put it, can work his ass out and finally rise on top of the person who is a genius.

This quote is not meant for a justification of laziness, and people who use this quote to justify their laziness should be ashamed for themselves.

Edited May 26, 2014 by Rika

[veregudmen]

You make some very valid points, regarding doing research before signing up for the IB and not letting peer pressure affect subject and course choices.

Honestly though, your post doesn't seem to be criticising the IB at all; rather, it looks more like a rant about your school. The teachers, their biased nature, are not exactly faults with the program but with the school. It doesn't appear to be a critique of a school system; rather, just a rant about a ****ty school.

On a side note, I completely disagree with the quote from Einstein. People are not born equal, in status or ability. While it does stand to reason that people may be good at different things, and may have their own 'niche' skills, it also stands to reason that there are people who are quite literally good for nothing.

In any case I know too many people who are absolutely pathetic at everything to believe the statement. Moreover, people use it as an excuse for their failures when the hard truth is they are lazy.

I am not intending to criticize IB itself, and if you actually saw this as a critique towards IBDP that has failed to do so, obviously you haven't read

the whole post because I did say down there that this is not meant to be a critique towards IBDP.

What difference is there between school "system" and schools themselves? The faulty system within the school is causing the bad teachers to stay

in their classes despite all the complaints from the students. The faulty school system has allowed bias and cheating to slip in easily, mutating the

academic honesty in the school. Of course, the school system is blameworthy. It is not a rant.

There are sh**** schools everywhere due to the shi**** systems, and thus those need to be criticized and people need to be warned against the

possible chaos they might find in IB due to the schools that could possibly be bad. Why is it a rant? The word "rant" devalues my post above, if that was your intention.

If you are confused on the difference between bad school systems and schools, take a look at this. This is happening in our province, and it's negatively affecting so many students, even I.B. students. Grade 11s this year cannot do their Group 4 project, thanks to this amazing strike.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/05/20/b-c-teachers-escalate-to-phase-2-job-action-rotating-strikes-start-monday/

People do indeed have different set of abilities and talents.

Obviously, a person who is bad at math can excel at music and vice versa can go for person B. Thus, if you ask a fish (person B) to climb a tree (doing good at music),

and if the fish struggles to do so, you can't really mock the person B for his failure because people have different set of abilities. This doesn't mean that

it is impossible to overcome these difficulties. With enough effort, such challenges can be overcome. But we cannot really mock and criticize the people that they are stupid for not excelling at areas that they are "supposed" to excel, such as Math. We cannot dare use abilities as a reason to classify and judge the worth of a person.

That was my point for using the quote. Academic ability should never be a reason to see yourself higher than the person near you. People all deserve equal respect as human beings. That was my point, and if you think otherwise, then I have nothing to say. I guess you could be one of those people who sees a person near you getting worse score than you do and smile upon your triumph and see it as a sign that you are worth highly than the person next to you, making your rank higher than that person. It is inhumane, in my perspective, but in your point of view, it could be moral. Notice that I'm using a word "could"? I'm not marking you as this kind of person, I'm just putting forward a possibility.

People have their own innate talents and abilities, but the innate talent and abilities do not define how their future could be weaved out.

A person "good for nothing," as you put it, can work his ass out and finally rise on top of the person who is a genius.

This quote is not meant for a justification of laziness, and people who use this quote to justify their laziness should be ashamed for themselves.

I know that. You said in your original post that your writing may sound like a critique of the IB, to which I responded that it doesn't sound like a critique of the IB. I don't understand the confusion here.

A school system would be the IB or the IGCSE or the A-levels or the ICSE, or it could be the system of cities having x number of public schools in a city, one for each area or every 3 areas, etc. and the process through which students are allocated to schools, like through their area of residence or academic performance or even their wealth(not that I know of any system like that). A school is an individual broker of the system. I stated that your problems were with the school itself and not the system. You stated this as well.

"Up until later in IB years, I thought that this was what IB as a whole really was. Then I came to this website and saw many of the posts,

and finally came out of my shell and realized that it is only our school that is the problem and that we are not getting the education that

we deserve to get as IB students."

I do know the difference between schools and school systems, I was merely remarking that the problems you faced were due to the former and not the latter. This is not to take away from the problems you faced, it is just to state that you suffered because of a bad school and not a bad system. In your whole post, you make no reference to the school system of Canada, just to your own school.

The link you posted is fascinating though; I'm surprised at the extent politics can influence schools this way.

I did not mean to devalue your post; it does have many good points, as I've said before. A rant is an emotionally charged, lengthy discourse, which is exactly what your post was. I'm happy to use a different word if you find the word 'rant' offensive in this context.

I understand your usage of the quote and its intention; I was just remarking that I disagree with the quote. Fair enough though; you do make a valid point with it.

[yii yann]

"Make sure your school can administer the IB well, or don't take it, because a badly administered IB is more damaging than any other badly administered high-school program. This is because the IB can be more difficult than other courses at times, along with IAs and such, therefore not having capable teachers and necessary resources would be severely undermining your efforts."

"The IB isn't the god-sent high school program that some people make it out to be; if another curriculum (A level, SAT, etc) is taught better, go for that. Don't buy into the hype that some people spread about IB."

"People who look down on those with lesser scores can go suck it".

Really, you could've just said that, you know.

[Ryoika]

"Make sure your school can administer the IB well, or don't take it, because a badly administered IB is more damaging than any other badly administered high-school program. This is because the IB can be more difficult than other courses at times, along with IAs and such, therefore not having capable teachers and necessary resources would be severely undermining your efforts."

"The IB isn't the god-sent high school program that some people make it out to be; if another curriculum (A level, SAT, etc) is taught better, go for that. Don't buy into the hype that some people spread about IB."

"People who look down on those with lesser scores can go suck it".

Really, you could've just said that, you know.

Yeah, I should have made it short and concise. I tried, but it just got longer and longer, because I just write long when I have so much thought into it :/ Made me suffer a lot during those IAs and EEs when word count is crucial.

Did the length of the writing make it hard for you to pick out the main points?

Edited May 27, 2014 by Rika

[Ryoika]

You make some very valid points, regarding doing research before signing up for the IB and not letting peer pressure affect subject and course choices.

Honestly though, your post doesn't seem to be criticising the IB at all; rather, it looks more like a rant about your school. The teachers, their biased nature, are not exactly faults with the program but with the school. It doesn't appear to be a critique of a school system; rather, just a rant about a ****ty school.

On a side note, I completely disagree with the quote from Einstein. People are not born equal, in status or ability. While it does stand to reason that people may be good at different things, and may have their own 'niche' skills, it also stands to reason that there are people who are quite literally good for nothing.

In any case I know too many people who are absolutely pathetic at everything to believe the statement. Moreover, people use it as an excuse for their failures when the hard truth is they are lazy.

I am not intending to criticize IB itself, and if you actually saw this as a critique towards IBDP that has failed to do so, obviously you haven't read

the whole post because I did say down there that this is not meant to be a critique towards IBDP.

What difference is there between school "system" and schools themselves? The faulty system within the school is causing the bad teachers to stay

in their classes despite all the complaints from the students. The faulty school system has allowed bias and cheating to slip in easily, mutating the

academic honesty in the school. Of course, the school system is blameworthy. It is not a rant.

There are sh**** schools everywhere due to the shi**** systems, and thus those need to be criticized and people need to be warned against the

possible chaos they might find in IB due to the schools that could possibly be bad. Why is it a rant? The word "rant" devalues my post above, if that was your intention.

If you are confused on the difference between bad school systems and schools, take a look at this. This is happening in our province, and it's negatively affecting so many students, even I.B. students. Grade 11s this year cannot do their Group 4 project, thanks to this amazing strike.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/05/20/b-c-teachers-escalate-to-phase-2-job-action-rotating-strikes-start-monday/

People do indeed have different set of abilities and talents.

Obviously, a person who is bad at math can excel at music and vice versa can go for person B. Thus, if you ask a fish (person B) to climb a tree (doing good at music),

and if the fish struggles to do so, you can't really mock the person B for his failure because people have different set of abilities. This doesn't mean that

it is impossible to overcome these difficulties. With enough effort, such challenges can be overcome. But we cannot really mock and criticize the people that they are stupid for not excelling at areas that they are "supposed" to excel, such as Math. We cannot dare use abilities as a reason to classify and judge the worth of a person.

That was my point for using the quote. Academic ability should never be a reason to see yourself higher than the person near you. People all deserve equal respect as human beings. That was my point, and if you think otherwise, then I have nothing to say. I guess you could be one of those people who sees a person near you getting worse score than you do and smile upon your triumph and see it as a sign that you are worth highly than the person next to you, making your rank higher than that person. It is inhumane, in my perspective, but in your point of view, it could be moral. Notice that I'm using a word "could"? I'm not marking you as this kind of person, I'm just putting forward a possibility.

People have their own innate talents and abilities, but the innate talent and abilities do not define how their future could be weaved out.

A person "good for nothing," as you put it, can work his ass out and finally rise on top of the person who is a genius.

This quote is not meant for a justification of laziness, and people who use this quote to justify their laziness should be ashamed for themselves.

I know that. You said in your original post that your writing may sound like a critique of the IB, to which I responded that it doesn't sound like a critique of the IB. I don't understand the confusion here.

A school system would be the IB or the IGCSE or the A-levels or the ICSE, or it could be the system of cities having x number of public schools in a city, one for each area or every 3 areas, etc. and the process through which students are allocated to schools, like through their area of residence or academic performance or even their wealth(not that I know of any system like that). A school is an individual broker of the system. I stated that your problems were with the school itself and not the system. You stated this as well.

"Up until later in IB years, I thought that this was what IB as a whole really was. Then I came to this website and saw many of the posts,

and finally came out of my shell and realized that it is only our school that is the problem and that we are not getting the education that

we deserve to get as IB students."

I do know the difference between schools and school systems, I was merely remarking that the problems you faced were due to the former and not the latter. This is not to take away from the problems you faced, it is just to state that you suffered because of a bad school and not a bad system. In your whole post, you make no reference to the school system of Canada, just to your own school.

The link you posted is fascinating though; I'm surprised at the extent politics can influence schools this way.

I did not mean to devalue your post; it does have many good points, as I've said before. A rant is an emotionally charged, lengthy discourse, which is exactly what your post was. I'm happy to use a different word if you find the word 'rant' offensive in this context.

I understand your usage of the quote and its intention; I was just remarking that I disagree with the quote. Fair enough though; you do make a valid point with it.

Okay. Sorry for the misinterpretation. I was a little emotionally charged (I won't describe the reason why, but it's it's a bit obvious) when I was reading your reply,

thus it seems like it has caused my misinterpretation.

The extent to which the politics influence the schools is ridiculous. Provincial exams (without which you cannot graduate) might get canceled (thus putting the students in great danger), and all the graduation ceremonies might get cancelled as well, if the strike moves up to stage 3... sigh.

[yii yann]

"Make sure your school can administer the IB well, or don't take it, because a badly administered IB is more damaging than any other badly administered high-school program. This is because the IB can be more difficult than other courses at times, along with IAs and such, therefore not having capable teachers and necessary resources would be severely undermining your efforts."

"The IB isn't the god-sent high school program that some people make it out to be; if another curriculum (A level, SAT, etc) is taught better, go for that. Don't buy into the hype that some people spread about IB."

"People who look down on those with lesser scores can go suck it".

Really, you could've just said that, you know.

Yeah, I should have made it short and concise. I tried, but it just got longer and longer, because I just write long when I have so much thought into it :/ Made me suffer a lot during those IAs and EEs when word count is crucial.

Did the length of the writing make it hard for you to pick out the main points?

The length was severely off putting, but that was not the only thing. You simply didn't say what you wanted to, very well. Your "honest words of advice" ended up being a platform to rant about your negative experience. There is nothing wrong with this - but do not disguise it as "advice". Since the essence of what you were saying was very muddled, your writing became highly open to interpretation. Thus you have several people thinking you're attacking IB as a program. This is dangerous for new IB students, who read your post and think IB itself is not a good program, that it's much too difficult, etc.

If you'd titled this as something relating to a rant - "Why I hated doing IB in my school" - for example, then people would've been more sympathetic to your plight. There'd be less arguing about your points.

If you're going to be giving advice, make it clear and simple to understand. Bullet points, and then explain, or whatever. Topic sentences. All that stuff. Otherwise you could be giving "advice" that you never even intended.

[Babydolleyes]

Since Grade 8, I was determined to join the I.B. program. It was unquestionable to not take the diploma program because

I was so confirmed that it would help my university years and there was also this issue of "prestige" in our school.

Thanks to peer pressure, you were thought as "dumb" or "stupid" or "brainless" if you do not take the I.B. diploma program, and due to all those teenage insecurities, there was no way that I wanted to be seen as dumb or stupid.

Taking the I.B. program in our school is like, well, an "honor," and there was no way that I was going to throw it away.

In Grade 10, the teachers and counselors kept talking of how good IB is and they tried to persuade that good universities won't accept UNLESS you take IB and that there's like 0% chance that you will pass first year

university if you do not take the I.B. diploma program.

Due to my unshakable faith in our school's IB, I did not try to question its faults, did not do enough research, and did not ask anyone

in IB of how exactly it is because I JUST HAD TO JOIN AND TAKE THE PROGRAM. This was the WORST mistake I made. I was vulnerable to peer pressure and propaganda.

Thanks to my lack of research, I realized WAY TOO LATE that our school's IB is one of the crappiest ever, compared to other schools in the province.

Half the teachers cared about our education (especially my SL teachers) and all they did was handing out notes without

enough explanation and depth, not even touching the base of the depth that a SL course should contain.

The quality of the education was, surprisingly, far worse than regular classes. One of the teachers was literally proud that

the highest score that she could guarantee us is a low score of 3~4. This is like a regular teacher saying that she's happy that her students are barely passing the course. Many of them were cranky as hell, and were very, very cruel.

I cannot still forget that demeaning look a teacher gave me when I asked for guidance on my Math IA. I felt like a pile of worthless trash.

I felt less than a respectable human being. That day was the first day that I cried because of a teacher (did not cry in front of her, thanks goodness).

So many times I have seen students on the verge of crying due to all their rants, and one of our classmates was actually thinking of doing a petition to get one of the cruelest teachers fired (didn't work unfortunately).

Up until later in IB years, I thought that this was what IB as a whole really was. Then I came to this website and saw many of the posts,

and finally came out of my shell and realized that it is only our school that is the problem and that we are not getting the education that

we deserve to get as IB students.

There were good teachers as well too, don't get me wrong; it was not like ALL IB subjects were terrible. I loved my HL courses (even though we did not get the education we deserved in History HL), and my English/TOK teacher was one of the best teachers that I have ever met in my years as a student. However, there were times that I sat down on my chair, looked back on my past, and regretted so many times that I should have done my research thoroughly. Enough research would have helped me to realize that universities are not as discriminatory as the counselors have described, realize that you can survive first year/all other university years without IB. If so, I would have taken certificates instead, throw away the so-called "you are stupid if you do not take the diploma" prejudice, win against the peer pressure, and thus replace all my crappy SL courses with regular courses that were 100 times better in quality. Believe me, people learned less in the IB language course, Math SL, and Science SL courses than they could have learned in regular version of those classes, thanks to ineffective teachers. The famous motto for Math SL in our school is, "if you don't get a tutor, you fail Math SL final exam." Math SL kids are getting tutored by HL kids, and these folks are saying that HL kids are way better at teaching than our Math SL teacher. One day, a TOC came to our Math SL class to teach Calculus. It was like a drop of pure water in sahara desert. That day was the day when I LEARNED Math.

I am really lucky because I am going into Arts and thus do not have to stress as much on Math (this might change because I could take a business minor). However, for engineering/science/business students, Math is crucial and very heavy-weighted. These people are worried as hell because due to lack of education received in Math SL, the probability of getting fail in Math class in university is very high. There are many rumors going on that taking Math SL without a tutor is a gateway to a "F" in first year university Math, and that regular Math Calculus course is a better preparation.

What was worse is that these teachers were really subjective in their predicted grades. People who were less liked by the teachers got lower predicted grades than the people who were phony but smart enough to use their social skills and fake smiles to get teachers' favoritism. Cheaters got scores of 7, thanks to favoritism, while hard-workers got 5s and 6s (even worse, 4s).

I had this person get like 5~6 on his REAL IA, do crappy on his exams (this guy doesn't study). But what he does is that he just talks a lot and uses fancy words to act as if he's interested in the subject. I, on the other hand, asked a lot of questions, got 7 on my IA, studied so hard and aced most of my exams. But I got a 6. He got a 7. The guy gets a lower percentage mark than me. It's a mystery and I am not happy with it. But I know that the teacher doesn't like me. She has "don't come near me. Go away" written on her forehead when I approach her to ask a question. I know that my personal involvement in this issue is a flag for bias alert, but similar cases have happened for so many of other students that the existence of bias and favoritism within predicted grades is unquestionable.

So, my point is this: do not be afraid to take the certificates. Do not be afraid to not take IB and choose regulars instead if you know that

regulars or certificates is going to provide a lot better educational path for you, with a higher quality.

I know that there are many of you who were than me and have recognized the possible faults within IB program in your schools. I know that there are people who are not afraid of peer pressure and those so-called arrogant "IB folks" who look down upon regular and certificates people because somehow being in IB diploma program makes you a lot "smarter" and "above" than regular folks.

I know that there are people who rightly believe in the wrongness within those arrogant "IB folks," who believe that school marks and two-digit IB scores determine how worthy you are. (They do not. No human deserves to be judged and classified based upon their academical ability because it is only a small part of what he or she really is. To borrow from Einstein's quote, "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid." But sadly, that simple logic did not get into the heads of some of arrogant IB folks in our school and out of our school.)

However, I also know that there are people who were as insecure as me towards peer pressure/ arrogant folks.

I know that there are people who are blindly trusting in the effectiveness of this IB program and are not seeing the possible

traps that the program in your school could hold.

I have seen so many of these types of people around me, and I do not want them to fall into the same trap I have fallen.

Let's face the truth, people. IB is not equal. I know that the IB organization tries its best to provide equal and global education in every IB school, but the truth is that it is not an equal education, and in every school, the way that IB is provided is different.

Two friends with same level of abilities could get into different IB schools. One person can come out from a really good IB school,

getting a very high score. The other person can come out from a really crappy IB school, getting a bad score. Of course, this can change if the latter one paid more effort. But considering that they had equal level of efforts, this is true.

Therefore, A RESEARCH BEFORE ENTERING INTO IB IS VERY CRUCIAL. You should not only ask people on web, but make sure that you ask MANY senior people of your school about it because they hold the MOST ACCURATE information of what IB really is like in your school. Ask the students doing the courses that you are going to take.

From here, I am aware of the possible argument that a harder IB program with ineffective teachers can actually help you to increase your independence and capability to do self-work and that taking certificates/regulars is an action of cowardice. If you are confident that you can manage IB program on literally on your own (self-taught) with useless, biased teachers and are determined to increase your abilities, then you are free to do so. Take the diploma program.

However, I believe that there is a reason why IB does not allow the courses to be self-taught (with the exception of self-taught language), unlike AP. IB is difficult, and people need guidance because people with knowledge up to grade 10 are suddenly doing university material. There is a reason why there are teachers in the IB program.

There are arrogant, ignorant people everywhere, and there could be people who look down upon you if you take certificates or regulars.

But you cannot let these people to influence and rule how your life is going to be.

I am not saying that every IB program in every school sucks. There are superb IB schools out there, with superb teachers and superb IB program. If you happen to be in that kind of school, thank the Heaven that you are lucky enough to be in such a school. (IB is not a bad program. It is a good program. And mostly the responsibility goes towards schools for turning this good program into a trash. I am not intending to criticize IB program itself here). In that case, then take the full diploma program because it will be a gateway and a useful guide to your success. However, if you happen to be in an IB school as worse or FAR WORSE than my IB school, then I recommend re-thinking your decision to take the diploma program.

Research thoroughly and plan enough to make up a course outline of your own that will make your educational career a lot easier.

Take the good IB courses that your school holds, and throw away the bad IB courses and replace them with better regular courses.

If these IB courses happen to be ALL BAD, do NOT take the diploma at all.

That is a way better preparation for you than doing IB diploma.

Do not believe the lie that not doing IB Diploma would make you fail getting in university and fail in surviving university years.

Believe me, I have seen so many who have not taken the IB diploma program at all and are doing excellently in their universities, and these universities are acclaimed universities. They are not the crappy ones.

If you are in IB Year 1 and realized the faults within your IB school, it is not too late. Change it to certificates or get out from the diploma completely.

I hope this writing was helpful for some IB students out there. I am wondering though, if this is okay because this writing could sound as a critique towards IB, and is it allowed at all in IB forum? But as I have said before, this is mostly not a critique towards IB but a critique towards the crappy school system that devalues it.

I have seen so many people suffering because of the problem mentioned in this writing. I saw people being way too-stressed due to taking a crappy program and I saw it influencing their mental health. Even for the sake of education, such depression/over-stress is not good. No one deserves such a damage.

p.s. The above writing was also for the arrogant IB folks out there. I have actually read some of your outrageous writings that mock people getting less scores than you. You guys have written that people who get less than 34 are piles of trash, people who get 34~36 are lazy procrastinators who complain and do no work, and that IB is freaking easy and people who take it hard are stupid to the core. Apparently you getting scores 40+ is supposed to justify your arrogant attitudes and your words that viciously offend so many IB people out there. I am disgusted that such immoral people like you got those high IB scores because these scores worked as catalysts that heightened your disgusting pride.

As a person who have seen so many people working the hardest and the best they could and getting scores like 36 (which is a really good score. Universities actually give scholarships for getting such scores), I am disgusted at you to the depth of my heart and I see people like you as a sad example of stupidity and IGNORANCE in educational society.

I hope the background explanations above helped to clear out some of your ignorance.

I think this is an interesting topic.

I firmly believe that research is of the utmost importance, and I also think it is so important that people are well informed especially when making life changing decisions. In my experience, most people in Iceland and Denmark don't know what the IB is, and if they have heard of the IB then they only have a vague idea of what it is. This propelled me to create an IB presentation for CAS during IB, so that my friends and I could give lectures at middle schools about the IB - To inform younger generations of the advantages and disadvantages to the IBDP.

I do agree with you (to an extent) that the IB is not equal, and that schools provide a different IB. However the greatest thing about the IB is that students take the same final exams, and that you can go through past papers that actually apply to everyone. You essentially have the same syllabus, and you always, always have the option to reach out to other IB kids from other schools or even get a tutor because a lot of the material is taught in other national programmes. You can also google, get a ton of super useful and informative youtube videos etc. The quality of the school (believe me) can only really amount to a few measly points. It can be the difference between a 5 and a 6, but not a 3 and a 7. You are in control, for me the IB was independent, self disciplined, self-taught studying for two years.

I paid a small fortune to Pamoja education so I could take Economics HL since my school didn't offer it. I was the only person in my huge online class that received a 7 in the end (I had kids from all around the world in my class, from Asia to Western Europe; some of them were applying to Oxford whilst others didn't take school seriously. Having an online subject allowed me to structure my day much more efficiently, I didn't receive any lectures and not many explanations, we were mainly just told what to cover each week, then we completed assignments and received feedback. I realize that proper, unbiased feedback on your assignments, especially IA's can make all the difference in the world, but remember that IA's are moderated and remember that teachers aren't always right, (which is why IA's are externally moderated). You can Google high scoring IA's for almost every single subject, so even if your teacher is completely incapable, you can still do what the IB wants. Reaching out to older students changed my IB experience as well.

So I honestly wouldn't recommend against taking the IB programme just because you find out the school near you isn't the best. My school wasn't the best by any stretch of the imagination, many people fail each year, and the highest score before mine occurred a decade ago (40 points). Some of the teachers were outrageously useless (we had petitions to get rid of the worst teacher as well, which also failed), and others really tried to help but were often misguiding us unintentionally.

I just have to touch upon this statement ''The quality of the education was, surprisingly, far worse than regular classes. One of the teachers was literally proud that

the highest score that she could guarantee us is a low score of 3~4. This is like a regular teacher saying that she's happy that her students are barely passing the course. Many of them were cranky as hell, and were very, very cruel.''

In my opinion, you are talking about the quality of the teaching, not the education (to me there is a big difference, because saying that quality of the education is low = the IB programme is low quality). Moreover, I honestly don't think a teacher should be able to guarantee any score whatsoever. This your education, and in the best case scenario, your teacher is just there to support and guide you. You have to do all the work, and even if your teacher is teaching you the wrong material, or not covering it all, then it is your responsibility to go through the syllabus and the textbook and make sure you know exactly what you need to know for the final exams. Furthermore, I think any teacher would be happy if her students were passing the course, isn't it better to have a teacher that doesn't have the highest expectations? Maybe that is just me.

Also, please keep in mind that we are expected to become more and more independent as we move up in our education. When I started pre-IB I wasn't a good student, and school didn't matter to me. I had no self discipline at all, and I had barely taken any sort of test before, let alone a cumulative semester exam. I found pre-IB shockingly hard, and my goal was to graduate with 24 points (that was ambitious to me!). I didn't have much support, but I had a lot of freedom. No one really cared if I studied or not, it was all up to me to sit down and open the textbooks so I could regurgitate information later on. Today I am seriously drowning in self discipline, which is exactly what I need for university. IB really is an amazing preparation for university, and anyone can defy all odds and decide to fight for what they want. I am sure I would have scraped a few extra points had I been lucky enough to be in a better IB school, there is no doubt in my mind, but that is no reason to skip the programme altogether just because I am losing out on a few points.

Finally, I just want to say that I can completely sympathize with ''high scoring IB arrogance'', I know exactly where you are coming from and I have experienced it a lot. I know exactly how destructive, demoralizing and indirectly dangerous the IB can be and I have witnessed more nervous breakdowns, deep depressions and mental disorders than I would have liked that were closely related to the IBDP. A lot of students struggle and try their best, and have super high standards that they can't meet. Receiving 32 points is a huge accomplishment for many students, and I would never want to take that away from anyone. Even though it doesn't directly affect me, my heart aches a little every time someone says the IB is a joke, and that if you can't breeze through the IB with Math HL, a part time job and an amazing social life then you suck and won't be able to complete the first year of university. A lot of people look down on people with scores lower than 36, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter. Just like it doesn't matter if someone looks down on you for taking math studies or whatever, haters will hate.

Some people just need to be able to boost their ego by judging other people, and there is absolutely nothing we can do about that! Don't give it another thought. We are all so much more than a score out of 45

[Ryoika]

"Make sure your school can administer the IB well, or don't take it, because a badly administered IB is more damaging than any other badly administered high-school program. This is because the IB can be more difficult than other courses at times, along with IAs and such, therefore not having capable teachers and necessary resources would be severely undermining your efforts."

"The IB isn't the god-sent high school program that some people make it out to be; if another curriculum (A level, SAT, etc) is taught better, go for that. Don't buy into the hype that some people spread about IB."

"People who look down on those with lesser scores can go suck it".

Really, you could've just said that, you know.

Yeah, I should have made it short and concise. I tried, but it just got longer and longer, because I just write long when I have so much thought into it :/ Made me suffer a lot during those IAs and EEs when word count is crucial.

Did the length of the writing make it hard for you to pick out the main points?

The length was severely off putting, but that was not the only thing. You simply didn't say what you wanted to, very well. Your "honest words of advice" ended up being a platform to rant about your negative experience. There is nothing wrong with this - but do not disguise it as "advice". Since the essence of what you were saying was very muddled, your writing became highly open to interpretation. Thus you have several people thinking you're attacking IB as a program. This is dangerous for new IB students, who read your post and think IB itself is not a good program, that it's much too difficult, etc.

If you'd titled this as something relating to a rant - "Why I hated doing IB in my school" - for example, then people would've been more sympathetic to your plight. There'd be less arguing about your points.

If you're going to be giving advice, make it clear and simple to understand. Bullet points, and then explain, or whatever. Topic sentences. All that stuff. Otherwise you could be giving "advice" that you never even intended.

Sorry if it sounded that way. But I did intend to write this as an advice. Do not accuse me of being a dishonest person.

There could have been turns and unexpected happenings due to my personal involvement in the situation (and thus making me more emotional than I intended), and it could have turned out to be more of an emotional rant than an advice. However, I did not mean this to happen, and really, I meant no harm.

I did clearly mention that this is not a criticizing article towards IB program (scroll up to see my reply to a person who made the same accusation as yours), but the schools that ruin that great program; there shouldn't be confusion over that. Actually, I should bold that to make that clearer, so that it does not become dangerous as you point out.

I have said that the above "advice" is not for everyone, and that if he/she feels like it is not for him/her, then he/she should press "back." I admitted that it is not a perfect advice, and that was me implying the possible bias within it due to me being personally involved in the situation. I wonder why you haven't done that, but it is fine if you decided to keep reading. It is for people who were in the similar situation as me, and it is up to them to follow it or not. It is not for every pre-IB and IB1 student.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Rika

[Ryoika]

I think this is an interesting topic.

I firmly believe that research is of the utmost importance, and I also think it is so important that people are well informed especially when making life changing decisions. In my experience, most people in Iceland and Denmark don't know what the IB is, and if they have heard of the IB then they only have a vague idea of what it is. This propelled me to create an IB presentation for CAS during IB, so that my friends and I could give lectures at middle schools about the IB - To inform younger generations of the advantages and disadvantages to the IBDP.

I do agree with you (to an extent) that the IB is not equal, and that schools provide a different IB. However the greatest thing about the IB is that students take the same final exams, and that you can go through past papers that actually apply to everyone. You essentially have the same syllabus, and you always, always have the option to reach out to other IB kids from other schools or even get a tutor because a lot of the material is taught in other national programmes. You can also google, get a ton of super useful and informative youtube videos etc. The quality of the school (believe me) can only really amount to a few measly points. It can be the difference between a 5 and a 6, but not a 3 and a 7. You are in control, for me the IB was independent, self disciplined, self-taught studying for two years.

I paid a small fortune to Pamoja education so I could take Economics HL since my school didn't offer it. I was the only person in my huge online class that received a 7 in the end (I had kids from all around the world in my class, from Asia to Western Europe; some of them were applying to Oxford whilst others didn't take school seriously. Having an online subject allowed me to structure my day much more efficiently, I didn't receive any lectures and not many explanations, we were mainly just told what to cover each week, then we completed assignments and received feedback. I realize that proper, unbiased feedback on your assignments, especially IA's can make all the difference in the world, but remember that IA's are moderated and remember that teachers aren't always right, (which is why IA's are externally moderated). You can Google high scoring IA's for almost every single subject, so even if your teacher is completely incapable, you can still do what the IB wants. Reaching out to older students changed my IB experience as well.

So I honestly wouldn't recommend against taking the IB programme just because you find out the school near you isn't the best. My school wasn't the best by any stretch of the imagination, many people fail each year, and the highest score before mine occurred a decade ago (40 points). Some of the teachers were outrageously useless (we had petitions to get rid of the worst teacher as well, which also failed), and others really tried to help but were often misguiding us unintentionally.

I just have to touch upon this statement ''The quality of the education was, surprisingly, far worse than regular classes. One of the teachers was literally proud that

the highest score that she could guarantee us is a low score of 3~4. This is like a regular teacher saying that she's happy that her students are barely passing the course. Many of them were cranky as hell, and were very, very cruel.''

In my opinion, you are talking about the quality of the teaching, not the education (to me there is a big difference, because saying that quality of the education is low = the IB programme is low quality). Moreover, I honestly don't think a teacher should be able to guarantee any score whatsoever. This your education, and in the best case scenario, your teacher is just there to support and guide you. You have to do all the work, and even if your teacher is teaching you the wrong material, or not covering it all, then it is your responsibility to go through the syllabus and the textbook and make sure you know exactly what you need to know for the final exams. Furthermore, I think any teacher would be happy if her students were passing the course, isn't it better to have a teacher that doesn't have the highest expectations? Maybe that is just me.

Also, please keep in mind that we are expected to become more and more independent as we move up in our education. When I started pre-IB I wasn't a good student, and school didn't matter to me. I had no self discipline at all, and I had barely taken any sort of test before, let alone a cumulative semester exam. I found pre-IB shockingly hard, and my goal was to graduate with 24 points (that was ambitious to me!). I didn't have much support, but I had a lot of freedom. No one really cared if I studied or not, it was all up to me to sit down and open the textbooks so I could regurgitate information later on. Today I am seriously drowning in self discipline, which is exactly what I need for university. IB really is an amazing preparation for university, and anyone can defy all odds and decide to fight for what they want. I am sure I would have scraped a few extra points had I been lucky enough to be in a better IB school, there is no doubt in my mind, but that is no reason to skip the programme altogether just because I am losing out on a few points.

Finally, I just want to say that I can completely sympathize with ''high scoring IB arrogance'', I know exactly where you are coming from and I have experienced it a lot. I know exactly how destructive, demoralizing and indirectly dangerous the IB can be and I have witnessed more nervous breakdowns, deep depressions and mental disorders than I would have liked that were closely related to the IBDP. A lot of students struggle and try their best, and have super high standards that they can't meet. Receiving 32 points is a huge accomplishment for many students, and I would never want to take that away from anyone. Even though it doesn't directly affect me, my heart aches a little every time someone says the IB is a joke, and that if you can't breeze through the IB with Math HL, a part time job and an amazing social life then you suck and won't be able to complete the first year of university. A lot of people look down on people with scores lower than 36, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter. Just like it doesn't matter if someone looks down on you for taking math studies or whatever, haters will hate.

Some people just need to be able to boost their ego by judging other people, and there is absolutely nothing we can do about that! Don't give it another thought. We are all so much more than a score out of 45

I think you really have good, valid points there. And with some points, I could relate so much because I also had to be more independent while doing IB.

But I did say that- "If you are confident that you can manage IB program on literally on your own (self-taught) ....and are determined to increase your abilities, then you are free to do so. Take the diploma program."

I am not saying that people should always back away from IB if they happened to be in a crappy school that ruined the program.

It's really their choice, and they should choose the best path that is provided for them. If regulars happened to provide a better way than IB program in their school,

then they should take regulars or certificates instead. For example, in my province, the material of IB Math SL is a lot easier than regular Calculus course. If there is a person who

wants to go into a field that stresses on Math, then he can choose Math HL or regular Calculus course. However, he can also take the whole diploma program and do an extra work himself, for example, by studying extra Calculus not covered by Math SL, for example. It was my mistake to not stress that a lot highly, and since there are people saying that my "advice/rant" is "dangerous," I'm going to alter the above writing to highlight that point.

I meant "teaching," not the "program" when I wrote "education." Again, sadly, this was my mistake as well, if this happened to be the wrong word choice.

I want to point out there that meanwhile learning process can be more "independent," there could be a lot that are missed when you do not have the good teaching and guidance

on your path of IB. Some people do not have enough money to get tutors or buy all those textbooks, and there is limitation on online sources.

However, this does not mean that you should not become independent. Independence is one of crucial aspects of learning, but I believe that mentors also play a huge role in

enriching the learning experience for people. I think balance between both aspects (obviously, you cannot become too dependent on your mentors because that weakens your independence and abilities). The key is, choose what is best out there for you. Don't let pressure from others to determine your future plan. <- This sums up what I wanted to say.

I'm glad that there is someone who recognizes the arrogance within "some" IB people, and it's sad that you also had to go through that as I did.

We are really more than just a number, and this number should not determine our "rank" in this "school" society. It saddens me when I see people using IB to crush down others.

IB was not meant as that, and it makes me sigh when people are abusing IB program like that.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Rika

[Yuki Kuran]

Whew, 2998 words