Keel Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 Thanks you, i think i understand the question better now. But you got me wondering if i shouldn't switch natural science to human science and focus on economics. You've already helped but you seem to know what your talking about, but what kind of sources are best to use articles or books, cause my teacher is being really vague about what to use and how to get it. In supporting your point, you should use 'real life situations'. This basically means anything! Have a look at the section under 'Real life situations' for a better explaination: Basically if the 'situation' described in the article/book supports your point, use it. But do not limit yourself to books and articles, try to use personal experience to hit the 'Knower's perspective' criteria. You can relate economics to the questions easily. For example, if company X wished to test the PED of a product obviously it would be nice to test it in every single shop availble, but that is both impractical and expensive. So, lets pick supermarket A, vendor B and shop C. We have selected 3 shops (selection) to test PED. The results come back, A=+ve PED, B=-ve PED and C=+ve PED. However, I suspect the results in B are not reliable because the person conducting the research was incompetent; so we will discard the results obtained from B (bias). Knowledge obtained = The PED for the product is +ve. However you must ask questions such as: What are the problems/limitations of reaching such a conclusion? What about the other shops which sell the product? ect. Do you take HL maths, options Statistics and probability? If you do it would be good to go into test statistics, unbias estimators ect. thank you so much sandwich and keel!!! i really appreciate your help my teacher aqlso suggested that if we look at it from the perspective of art, then we could talk about who decides how much a painting is worth? for eg, the mona lisa is such a famous piece of art by leonardo da vinci. however, there are many replicas of the painting but no one values them as much as the original, even if it looks exactly alike.... so this is a case of bias and selection right? Hello Smiley, I would be strongly tempted to disagree with your teacher's apprach for several reasons. Firstly, the bias is dependent on a person's knowledge that an original exists and their ability to tell the difference between a copy and the original. Secondly, that is only an example of bias, no selection is involved. (more importantly), it does not aid you in answering the question. What 'knowledge' is there to be obtained? You may argue that it shows human nature which values the origins of things, but it would make a pretty weak example. What I believe the examiners are after is something similar to surveys (i.e selecting certian people creating bias in data), historical investigations (bias in historical sources, historians having to choose particular sources and valuing each source differently), the relability of a census (concealing facts, not everyone filling it in), trials in an experiment (random uncertainties, preference to a particualr method) ect. Having thought about this again, I believe I was wrong to say that Art is not relevant. Actually all the AoKs are relevant to this title, it's just that the context in which you (or your teacher rather) suggested to use art was off the mark. For Art, the creator always has a bias which is determined by the socio-historical background. Whether theses creators are artists, playwrights, novelists, musicians or dramatists, they can never truly reach a state of being unbiased. This bias is reflected in their works. Feminist novelists will create scenarios in their novels which show the injustice or inequality which women have to suffer ect. This relates to the creator's objective. Sometimes their bias determines the objective of their work, sometimes it does not. But the bias is certainly portrayed in their work. To reach their objective, they must select particular techniques to convey messages. A dramatist would use dramatic irony to show injustice, a painter would use dark colours to portray misery. This is where the 'selection' comes in. Now in relation to the 'attain knowledge' and 'problems'. The product created by the creator does not necessarily reflect physical truth. A portrait of a deformed face does not necessarily mean that the face the artist was painting was deformed (this is the problem). However, there could be some deeper meaning to the portrait which reflects either the person the artist was painting or the artist's own perception of the world. That is where we are able to attain knowledge. 2 Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
smiley Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 hi again i wanted to know... since we have to use history as an AOK can we give the example that the textbooks are biased? for example the US - japan war that began with the bombing of the pearl harbour is described differently in different textbooks. simillarly the india - pakistan wars are described differently in indian textbooks and pakistani textbooks.... can i use this as a case of bias and selection? pls help! Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keel Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 hi again i wanted to know... since we have to use history as an AOK can we give the example that the textbooks are biased? for example the US - japan war that began with the bombing of the pearl harbour is described differently in different textbooks. simillarly the india - pakistan wars are described differently in indian textbooks and pakistani textbooks.... can i use this as a case of bias and selection? pls help! Absolutely, have a look at my first post on source selection and source bias. Similar to the creators of Art, a historian will have factors which influence their ability to judge such as nationality, culture, gender, social class ect. That is an example of 'problems of bias and selection'. After you have explained why there is a problem of bias and selection, you must evaluate whether it is still 'possible to attain knowledge'. 1 Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keel Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 hye keeli really need your help. actually, i don't really understand difference between bias and selection as sometime selection is subset to the bias. Or maybe i got the wrong idea about it?Hello Ain Zaffira Zaini,It depends which part in the process of obtaining knowledge is subject to bias. For example, in a bag there are 990 red balls and 10 black balls. I know that there are 1000 balls in the bag and that they are either all red or some black some red. However, I dont have enought time to inspect all the balls. To determine which is the case I set up the rule and select 100 balls: if all balls obtain are red, all the balls in the bag are red, if there is at least 1 black ball then some are red some are black. I select 100 red balls. Thus my conclusion is that all the balls in the bag are red. Was my incorrect conclusion a result of the problem of bias or selection? This would be a problem of selection and is a key problem in statistical random sample testing.However, who makes the rules (or the hypothesis parameters)? Is there not bias involved as well? 1 Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WK93 Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 Thanks you, i think i understand the question better now. But you got me wondering if i shouldn't switch natural science to human science and focus on economics. You've already helped but you seem to know what your talking about, but what kind of sources are best to use articles or books, cause my teacher is being really vague about what to use and how to get it. In supporting your point, you should use 'real life situations'. This basically means anything! Have a look at the section under 'Real life situations' for a better explaination: Basically if the 'situation' described in the article/book supports your point, use it. But do not limit yourself to books and articles, try to use personal experience to hit the 'Knower's perspective' criteria. You can relate economics to the questions easily. For example, if company X wished to test the PED of a product obviously it would be nice to test it in every single shop availble, but that is both impractical and expensive. So, lets pick supermarket A, vendor B and shop C. We have selected 3 shops (selection) to test PED. The results come back, A=+ve PED, B=-ve PED and C=+ve PED. However, I suspect the results in B are not reliable because the person conducting the research was incompetent; so we will discard the results obtained from B (bias). Knowledge obtained = The PED for the product is +ve. However you must ask questions such as: What are the problems/limitations of reaching such a conclusion? What about the other shops which sell the product? ect. Do you take HL maths, options Statistics and probability? If you do it would be good to go into test statistics, unbias estimators ect. Hi Keel. No sadly i do not take HL maths, but i'm definitively going to change to economics now, any more tips regarding economics? Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clove Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 Hi. Im planning to do my TOK essay on the 3rd topic:Using history and atleast one other area of knowledge, examine the claim that it is possible to attain knowledge despite problems of bias and selection.Im planning to use history and Natural sciences as AOK. I thought of using Darwin and Mendel's theory as my example. But im not so sure if its ok. Is there any other solid example I could use? Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aarti Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 I'm planning to use ethics as my other area of knowledge. But I'm still researching. Any suggestions? Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgieC Posted August 9, 2011 Report Share Posted August 9, 2011 I've put one personal example into this essay topic, and i've written the rest of my essay and I'm happy with it. My question is do you need more than one personal example to make the essay strong? or if you put your perspective into the essay and have one personal experience is that enough? Thanks. Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Access Denied Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Im doing this topic and have given it to others to proof read and I have 4 personal experiences..... and some say i have more and some say thats enough...... none say i need less....good luck Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aarti Posted September 7, 2011 Report Share Posted September 7, 2011 When I choose History as my AOK, do I have to mention a particular topic in history where there has been bias and selection or can I mention more than one of such events.If I'm supposed to mention just one such event, then would Hitler and the Jews work or is it too common or too easy?Also, if I take Ethics as my other AOK, will that also be too easy? I haven't thought it through but Hindu mythology has a lot of dos and don'ts and therefore can prove to be apt for the essay. Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegant Poodle Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 Hi, i was wondering.There is an important criteria in the IB TOK Essay which basically states we need to show our personal growth. So shouldn't we be focusing on personal responses more? Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reham Ahmed Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 I want to write in topic #3 " Using history and at least of area of knowledge . examine the claim that it is possible to attain knowledge despite problems of bias and selection " . I just don't know who to start and also what I have to do :S So if anyone can write to me some tips , like : an website that will help me in TOK essay or something like that Thanks alot . Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegant Poodle Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 Hi, for this topic, i was wondering if natural science and history had be compared.The big question here is, what is the meaning of selection in this context?And how is it found in history and natural sciences. Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PopTheLops Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 Hi, for this topic, i was wondering if natural science and history had be compared.The big question here is, what is the meaning of selection in this context?And how is it found in history and natural sciences.Selection is stated as the act of choosing or selecting a preference; resulting in a carefully chosen and representative choice.You could maybe find it in history through the different ideologies, the different views that are usually presented in history, you could compare two different views and you'll definitely find stuff one view has that the other doesn't, that can also show the bias. In nat sciences i guess you could look at the different theories, check out evolution, im not entirely sure but thats where i'd start but then again i don't take any nat sciences except for env. sys. Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Boys of Boston Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 Hi, for this topic, i was wondering if natural science and history had be compared. The big question here is, what is the meaning of selection in this context? And how is it found in history and natural sciences. Hi. I'm not doing this topic, but I've did a little bit of digging in this area before. Selection in both the natural sciences and history refers to the selection of the knowledge to be studied. They are briefly distinguished below. History: It is obviously impossible to study EVERY event that has occurred in the past, and because of this only some events are selected to be studied because of significance. This is not the only thing though, there's more to it. A lack of sufficient sources perhaps? e.g. Why is Hitler studied and remembered as a part of history when the life of a 4-year old boy playing tag is not? Natural Sciences: Some knowledges of the natural sciences are studied more than others, sometimes due to social bias, political, or environmental needs. And also as all dishonest IB students studying the natural science subjects should know, it may be easier sometimes to falsify experimental results. e.g. There is much ongoing research in the environmental sciences due to the increasing threat of climate change and/or global warming, while progress in other "insignificant" science areas such as physics are not as great. Just a few starting ideas, good luck! Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PopTheLops Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 This is my prescribed title as well, i'm using history and economics, does anyone have any examples of bias and selection in economics? Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IB 2012 Posted November 6, 2011 Report Share Posted November 6, 2011 Hey everyone!I'm kind of pondering on the question what historical knowledge actually is? and how historical knowledge is different from scientific or art knowledge?Any ideas Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kariya93 Posted November 6, 2011 Report Share Posted November 6, 2011 Hi guys,I am writing my essay in relation between history and ethics... using experiences and cultures as the WOKs... anybody have any ideas on what arguments i could use? thanks Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kd26 Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 HEy guys!so, i'm trying to tackle this essay..but does anyone have any ideas on an outline using history and natural science?like just a brief one on what would be good to talk about in the body paragraphs?thanks! Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmi Posted December 4, 2011 Report Share Posted December 4, 2011 (edited) In one part of my essay I am talking about how perspective can create bias in history. I mentioned how different perspectives can give different views of the same event using an example of two documents I used in my EE that contradicted each other. For a counterclaim I discussed unreliable perspectives and how that can limit what kind of information a source contains or whether we can even consider that source because of the unreliability of its source. So then I started thinking about my own personal perspectives and how that makes me look at historical documents, and if I had some sort of personal/family/ancestral connection to an event that would change how I would see the event, or if I would event want to study the event. And if that made me biased would I still get knowledge out of the source, and if so how would I have to deal with that so that I can still attain knowledge?Is this a valid way to approach this, or should I abandon/change this approach to my essay? Edited December 4, 2011 by emyski Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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