Osama Bin Laden confirmed dead

[IBVeryStressed]

First time I can say I'm glad to hear somebody is dead. I don't believe in hell, but right now I wish I did, but even then it'd be more than he deserves. Hopefully this will demoralize his followers, but it's very likely we'll see a huge spike in terrorist activities in retaliation, I just hope it's the former and not the latter.

On a lighter note, the world champion of hide and seek was found after almost ten years

[Center Field]

GO USA!

Edited May 2, 2011 by Center Field

[ocfx]

I'm not meaning to say that you shouldn't rejoice that some justice has finally come about, but somehow from the perspective of a person who has been an onlooker from the outside to the events, it seems to me almost like falling to their level just murdering him like that. Okay, given the circumstances of a military operation it was probably one of the few options, but isn't it unethical that justice is brought upon him without ever bringing him to real and fair justice of some judicial system. I mean this seems to me almost like asserting the right to have war by bringing justice of one's own hand upon one man. Surely there is significant evidence that Osama was a person who was involved in the planning of numerous terrorist attacks, but wouldn't it have been more just if the evidence had been weighed out in a court

Edited May 2, 2011 by ocfx

[Proletariat]

I'm biting my tongue for now. It wouldn't be much good at this time anyways.

Congrats US. 24 Canadians died in the 9/11 attacks as well, and it is good to see the last symbolic remnant of that event taken care of. You guys - and Obama too - could use a break like this, so enjoy it.

I'm very interested to get all the details as the story is fully revealed. There are a lot of questions to be answered, not the least of which is the potential repercussions in the Middle East, as alluded to above. Westerners typically have a very skewed sense of that part of the world, so I won't be so bold as to say there will be wholly rejoice or retaliation. When will we see the body? Will Fox be parading the SEAL who had the kill shot around on its networks, or will the entire country do so? How involved was the Pakistini government? What effect will it have on American foreign policy, if any? What domestic effects?

The fun has just begun.

[Proletariat]

I'm not meaning to say that you shouldn't rejoice that some justice has finally come about, but somehow from the perspective of a person who has been an onlooker from the outside to the events, it seems to me almost like falling to their level just murdering him like that. Okay, given the circumstances of a military operation it was probably one of the few options, but isn't it unethical that justice is brought upon him without ever bringing him to real and fair justice of some judicial system. I mean this seems to me almost like asserting the right to have war by bringing justice of one's own hand upon one man. Surely there is significant evidence that Osama was a person who was involved in the planning of numerous terrorist attacks, but wouldn't it have been more just if the evidence had been weighed out in a court

The backlash in America would have been massive had he been tried. Consider the trauma that families of people who died in 1993, 1998, 2000, 2001, and all the subsequent wars would have felt. The political repercussions of the trial would also be heavily felt in the conservative South-they would say Obama is too soft. Furthermore, the man was implicated with valid and tested evidence in over eighteen mass murders...the dude deserved to die-and I don't dole that judgement out lightly. From the stand point of practicality, if we had tried to capture him he may have had a better chance at escape. Furthermore, the American justice system is really screwed up-not from being corrupt (generally the bad guys get punished fairly), but from being too bureaucratic. It would have cost too much money to put on such a trial.

Lastly, to the ethics question...it may be unethical on some level, but anyone who had their parents wake them up at 6 AM to see men jumping out of a ninety story building to avoid being burned alive that day will probably agree to ignore the ethics of it all.

I do see your point though, but I think that the action that was taken was probably for the best.

This is a gut-reaction that you and almost every other American is feeling right now. Likely the adrenaline and the patriotism is still flowing. You could have stuck to the firefight point; that's a much compelling argument than the one you give above, not to mention simpler and less morally questionable to defend.

Just two things. Americans, of all people, given the founding principles of their nation, should not be taking a stance contrary to the rule of Law, under any circumstance. And in war, casualties are not only sustained by one side.

[Center Field]

Evidence suggests that the American started the firefight...so really it's not all that great. I agree with your casualty rhetoric, however. The so called "gut reaction" is a reason to not have put him on trial...and my country is so hypocritical that to cite our "founding principles" is hogwash. Our country was designed on slavery and it was founded on the killing and displacement of natives. The American way is not usually morally right, or simple. I am not trying to incite, and on an international forum I would lose by press gang.

Edited May 2, 2011 by Center Field

[nametaken]

I think we all need to ask ourselves if this is the beginning of the end or the end. Osama bin laden was not an individual, he was a mindset. I'm surprised that the whole world refuses to recognize that he was just one of the many manifestations of inequality, injustice and insanity that still prevails.

Edited May 2, 2011 by nametaken

[Proletariat]

I'm not meaning to say that you shouldn't rejoice that some justice has finally come about, but somehow from the perspective of a person who has been an onlooker from the outside to the events, it seems to me almost like falling to their level just murdering him like that. Okay, given the circumstances of a military operation it was probably one of the few options, but isn't it unethical that justice is brought upon him without ever bringing him to real and fair justice of some judicial system. I mean this seems to me almost like asserting the right to have war by bringing justice of one's own hand upon one man. Surely there is significant evidence that Osama was a person who was involved in the planning of numerous terrorist attacks, but wouldn't it have been more just if the evidence had been weighed out in a court

The backlash in America would have been massive had he been tried. Consider the trauma that families of people who died in 1993, 1998, 2000, 2001, and all the subsequent wars would have felt. The political repercussions of the trial would also be heavily felt in the conservative South-they would say Obama is too soft. Furthermore, the man was implicated with valid and tested evidence in over eighteen mass murders...the dude deserved to die-and I don't dole that judgement out lightly. From the stand point of practicality, if we had tried to capture him he may have had a better chance at escape. Furthermore, the American justice system is really screwed up-not from being corrupt (generally the bad guys get punished fairly), but from being too bureaucratic. It would have cost too much money to put on such a trial.

Lastly, to the ethics question...it may be unethical on some level, but anyone who had their parents wake them up at 6 AM to see men jumping out of a ninety story building to avoid being burned alive that day will probably agree to ignore the ethics of it all.

I do see your point though, but I think that the action that was taken was probably for the best.

This is a gut-reaction that you and almost every other American is feeling right now. Likely the adrenaline and the patriotism is still flowing. You could have stuck to the firefight point; that's a much compelling argument than the one you give above, not to mention simpler and less morally questionable to defend.

Just two things. Americans, of all people, given the founding principles of their nation, should not be taking a stance contrary to the rule of Law, under any circumstance. And in war, casualties are not only sustained by one side.

First off, I will delete my previous post.

Secondly, evidence suggests that the American started the firefight...so really it's not all that great. I agree with your casualty rhetoric, however. The so called "gut reaction" is a reason to not have put him on trial...and my country is so hypocritical that to cite our "founding principles" is hogwash. Our country was designed on slavery and it was founded on the killing and displacement of natives. The American way is not usually morally right, or simple. I am not trying to incite, and on an international forum I would lose by press gang.

You misunderstand. Of course Americans started the firefight; it was a mission that was planned, passed by Obama, then executed. I'm not sure what you're trying to get at. All I'm saying is that instead of trying to belittle or diminish the legal frameworks of Western democracies to suggest why bin Laden was shot, you could instead say, "hey, it was a firefight: hard to handcuff a guy with bullets whizzing past your head!"

I would have preferred to see bin Laden arrested, tried, and executed (which is what happened with Hussein, and what happened at Nuremberg; bin Laden here is flaunting precedents), but am I upset that he was shot? No. I'm more concerned with the lack of faith you've shown for your country's judiciary.

When I said "gut reaction", I was referring to that no-holds-barred mentality that is the immediate aftermath of such news, in regards to bin Laden's capture/death. It is now evident that there's a personal undercurrent of cynicism regarding the American populace at play. Listen, I'm Canadian, I'm usually all for cynicism against Americans. My citizenship in context to the US would hardly qualify as "international", and I'm not looking to partake in any gang-related activity here, press or otherwise. You seemed to have mistook my feeble, sleepy admonishments as an outright condemnation. Don't. I don't know why you have so little faith in the American people, and I don't need to know. I would suggest otherwise, but it's your country, not mine, and you know it.

I think we all need to ask ourselves if this is the beginning of the end or the end. Osama bin laden was not an individual, he was a mindset. I'm surprised that the whole world refuses to recognize that he was just one of the many manifestations of inequality, injustice and insanity that still prevails.

This is completely true. In practical terms, the death of bin Laden should make very little difference. Al-Qaeda has been fractured and functioning without central organization for years now. Pundits already recognize that this will change the ground game very little. It's the social effects stretching tomorrow, next week, and the next month that will be more difficult to tell.

Besides, those college-kids in the D.C. area need a reason to drink on Sunday night. Probably good excuse for some girl to flash the BBC cameras.

[Center Field]

heh, I think my sleepy contentions are more than slightly effected by outside factors. Didn't see it as a condemnation though-more of a reactionary statement-which I can never really resist having fun with. I will not offer any more substance to this matter until after my testing over the next three weeks. There is no point.

[nametaken]

Bin Laden's death is a huge blow to extremists, but al-Qaeda today is loose and amorphous, not the highly centralised hierarchy it once was. Today al-Qaeda's philosophy is one man one bomb. In other words it does not need another 9/11 to make its mark. One bomb in Times Square in New York placed by one dedicated suicide bomber or one bomb in a New York subway - both attacks were attempted last year - are big enough indicators that al-Qaeda is alive and kicking.

[Proletariat]

heh, I think my sleepy contentions are more than slightly effected by outside factors. Didn't see it as a condemnation though-more of a reactionary statement-which I can never really resist having fun with. I will not offer any more substance to this matter until after my testing over the next three weeks. There is no point.

Ouch - never been called "reactionary" before

That's alright. The irony is that the "there is no point" message is where I started from, if you scroll up.

[Center Field]

Ouch - never been called "reactionary" before

That's alright. The irony is that the "there is no point" message is where I started from, if you scroll up.

Lol, you're not reactionary; I thought your statement was. I should have been paying more attention, however. I started writing my original response to the other person while you were writing your first post. I didn't look, and I made myself look rather foolish as a result. But the waiting schtick is probably best. There's a reason the police on the east coast are on high alert at the moment.

In regards to the Al Qaeda stuff-terrorism definitely is amorphous at this point. Osama was a symbol. I just hope they don't get another one.

Edited May 2, 2011 by Center Field

[nametaken]

Ouch - never been called "reactionary" before

That's alright. The irony is that the "there is no point" message is where I started from, if you scroll up.

Lol, you're not reactionary; I thought your statement was. I should have been paying more attention, however. I started writing my original response to the other person while you were writing your first post. I didn't look, and I made myself look rather foolish as a result. But the waiting schtick is probably best. There's a reason the police on the east coast are on high alert at the moment.

In regards to the Al Qaeda stuff-terrorism definitely is amorphous at this point. Osama was a symbol. I just hope they don't get another one.

Too right.

[C.James]

I agree with the mindset that ideally he should have been captured and tried.

Unfortunately by killing him in such a manner it could paint the Americans as equally brutal/dishonest.

A death by executioner following a trial would have been better. He was a terrible person but I still feel the human thing is to give a fair trial; and it comes with the bonus of rubbing it in his face that we posess mercy and human decency and showing the world that the west is better than the extremist nut.

Although its a good thing he's gone one way or another.

[superassification]

don't you think this will have severe repercussions? the terrorists will be infuriated. this calls for more and worse attacks...

[nametaken]

don't you think this will have severe repercussions? the terrorists will be infuriated. this calls for more and worse attacks...

Completely agree with you. Certain groups have already begun voicing their fury.

Edited May 2, 2011 by nametaken

[Gee :)]

First time I can say I'm glad to hear somebody is dead. I don't believe in hell, but right now I wish I did, but even then it'd be more than he deserves. Hopefully this will demoralize his followers, but it's very likely we'll see a huge spike in terrorist activities in retaliation, I just hope it's the former and not the latter.

On a lighter note, the world champion of hide and seek was found after almost ten years

I think his death is only going to inspire a lot of extremists get revenge and then more {innocent] lives will be lost.In general,I don't want to say too much about it because I'm not American and am really hardly affected by his death.Also,I much would have preferred him being put on trail but understand that it may have not been possible under the circumstances.

[TwoSaints]

I'm not meaning to say that you shouldn't rejoice that some justice has finally come about, but somehow from the perspective of a person who has been an onlooker from the outside to the events, it seems to me almost like falling to their level just murdering him like that. Okay, given the circumstances of a military operation it was probably one of the few options, but isn't it unethical that justice is brought upon him without ever bringing him to real and fair justice of some judicial system. I mean this seems to me almost like asserting the right to have war by bringing justice of one's own hand upon one man. Surely there is significant evidence that Osama was a person who was involved in the planning of numerous terrorist attacks, but wouldn't it have been more just if the evidence had been weighed out in a court

I don't understand why people immediately assume that he was executed...he wasn't executed! He fought back against the American soldiers and was killed in the process; he didn't just surrender and get shot in the head, he shot back and fought 'til the end. I'm still glad that he was finally taken down.

[Sandwich]

The whole issue slightly sickens me. My gut reaction to the idea that a group of guys apparently stood outside the White House chanting "USA USA" is that it's frankly tribal and disgusting. I mean yes, they found him eventually, that's good, but celebrating somebody's death like a victory is just screwed up. Let's just take his head, stick it on a spike and exhibit it outside the village gates, after all that worked for hundreds of years! The terrorists celebrating the murder of the 9/11 victims is sick and twisted, and the world celebrating the murder of the man who organised it is also screwed up.

I think part of the reason it sickens me so much is because it seems to me like vindictive hatred and revenge is an American global policy and reflective of the genuine feeling and intentions of a lot of the people of that country. For instance, the Scottish freed the Lockerbie bomber because they believed him to be terminally ill. Of course you can't predict illness (and there're some rumblings that it's part of some oil deal, but to be honest there's not a single thing which isn't labelled conspiratorial so I don't know what to believe on that) but I think it's the best gesture anybody could have made. It's an attitude that I respect.

In response, the Americans started baying for blood, like "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" is still the way the justice system is meant to operate. Somehow the Scots got over the fact that Scottish people were killed without wanting everybody involved (and ironically, the Lockerbie bomber was never really proven to be involved) murdered, but in the USA there was a total uproar that there wasn't "death to the infidel". It's such a backwards way of thinking. I mean that's why the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan began in the first place, as some kind of crazy cycle of revenge. If Osama bin Laden becomes a martyr to the cause of extreme islamism and people want to get revenge, it would actually be hypocritical to judge people for it because revenge is the underlying motive for everything that the USA & Allies appear to be doing.

T it-for-tat death nauseates me as the ultimate hypocrisy. I very much agree with ocfx. I know bin Laden did terrible things, but doing terrible things back and then having a good old laugh and back-slap about it is no different. Personally I'd like to think that we are different, but reality consistently proves otherwise.

‎"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy." Martin Luther King, Jr

[C.James]

I saw some of the videos of americans celebrating.

Unsettling at best and and errilly similar to terrorists celebrating their attacks.