Ground Zero Mosque

[AGBellamy]

Warning: may contain slight racism/xenophobia/anti-religion.

Hello,

Yesterday, I happened upon this article:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/18/20100814/tpl-obama-endorses-mosque-plan-near-grou-10170b4.html

I'm not a huge fan of Obama's (in that I don't really care because politics is something I hate with all my heart) but I still defend him when people say he's the anti-Christ by using the world's laziest reasoning system: generalising his name: Hussein= Saddam Hussain. Obama= Osama bin Laden.

The Bible says that everybody will love the anti-Christ for the first few years of his reign. He'll stop wars, clear the atmosphere, make everybody friends, etc. That will not come just because a mixed-race guy is President of the USA. My reasons:

1. For all the people who love him, there are 1.5 as many who still hate him.

2. For those who hated him, but are coming around to his policies, they still don't like him.

3. The anti-Christ is given no physical description (as far as I am aware, because I'm not Christian), so for all we know it could be Gordon Brown or Sarkozy, or even somebody totally unexpected like Fabio Capello or the guy just down the street. It could even be a woman.

4. Just because the Americans are way more 'out there' with religion (more 'out there' than us British), it's not to say that they're completely accurate with the Bible. England is a CoE country. Italy is Catholic. Christianity doesn't have to be deemed the 'one true religion'. Islam could be right. Paganism could be right. The world doesn't revolve around ONE thing.

5. People just THINK he's the anti-Christ, and it's things like the GZM that reinforce it. That's not to say he IS.

Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize, which I feel he did not deserve because he made promises. As far as I know, he didn't actually DO anything (please point out if I am wrong). I found the above article and showed it to a group of friends who all share more or less the same sentiments: The mosque is wrong.

I don't mean to say that Islam on a whole is wrong- I want to make that clear- it's just this one particular mosque should not be erected. I think that it's too soon for it to be erected, or at least it should be somewhere else. It's just a few feet away from Ground Zero. That, to me, seems like a bully taunting a kid with lactose intolerance with a massive tub of Ben & Jerry's. It's rubbing salt on still-fresh wounds. I will admit that I think 9/11 was a little over-hyped, but it was with good reason. It was the first time that something on this scale had ever happened. We had our own version of 9/11 here in England- 7/7. It wasn't as hyped up because it was a bus and a couple of trains, but I have a feeling if a mosque were to be erected in front of King's St. Pancras, Tavistock Square or Edgeware Road nobody would be happy. There would be huge protests, people chaining themselves to the area, hunger strikes. The list goes on.

Of course Muslims deserve freedom of religious expression, and I'm all for it. I've been to mosques before and I've had better experiences in them than churches and chapels.

It's not even been 10 years since 9/11 and most of the people affected by it have been severely traumatised. I agree that everyone should be able to move on, but like I said before: it's too soon. A more appropriate time gap would be about 50 years. It's also quite suspicious that they chose this particular location for the mosque. My friend- who suffers quite severe paranoia- thinks that it's going to be the centre for terrorist activities. I'm not going to say I think the same, but I'm not going to completely discard the possibility no matter how silly it seems. It's also going to be quite dangerous once/if construction finishes: I could bet that somebody, some extremist with more money and rage than sense, will try to destroy it.

I have tried to make this as unbiased as possible. What do you guys think about the Ground Zero mosque?

HGB.

[Guest]

Honestly? I think it should stay...th Muslims aren't to blame for the attacks...the terrorists behind it are...they're just using the religion as a front.

[Sandwich]

My opinion is that I can hardly believe this debate even exists. It's like saying that you can't build a Church in the town where the Klu Klux Klan lived. Serious, fundamental error of squaring millions and millions of reasonable muslims who have every right to practice their faith with approximately, what, twelve(?) suicidal fundamentalist maniacs from a different country who died roughly 10 years ago now.

That there is opposition to this mosque is, in my opinion, completely ridiculous. Not only are you penalising millions of totally normal reasonable people for the actions of some total crazies, but you're also acting in a way which is discriminatory, antagonising, stereotyping and insulting towards those muslims. It's picking them out and basically saying to them: you and your religion are not welcome here.

To be perfectly frank, if there was any way to confirm the fact that everything the US does is part of a religious hate-war (as many fundamental muslims believe and indeed are inspired to commit acts of terrorism by) it would be to take such a vindictive and discriminatory action against a religious group.

It doesn't even require forgiveness and reconciliation, because the people who are going to use the mosque and want it built aren't anything more to do with the people who committed the acts of 9/11 than I am to do with Neo-Nazis just because I'm white. It's the worst kind of stereotyping, to say that a whole group is evil because of the actions of a very few and then somehow use hurt feelings to justify reducing the rights of those citizens. If I'm not very much mistaken, that's how Hitler vilified the Jews.

There is a mosque right by King's Cross St. Pancras and one at Edgware Road, and if anybody wanted to chain themselves to some railings or go on hunger strike, I say let them. Pretty sure it wouldn't take too long before they were in McDonalds being served by a muslim guy behind the check-out. If they get a taste of their own medicine, perhaps he'll refuse to give them ketchup because it reminds him of his family killed by an Allied Bomb in Afghanistan to see red on an Englishman's hands. Good grief, is all I can say!

This kind of petty stuff makes me really angry. Yes something terrible has happened. No, unrelated people do not need to suffer for it just because some people can't mentally sort fundamentalist craziness from the normal people in the street. If they want to create a centre for 'terrorist activities', they can do so far more efficiently in a house frequented only by themselves than in a public place of worship where they'll be surrounded by tourists and the reasonable majority.

[AGBellamy]

My opinion is that I can hardly believe this debate even exists. It's like saying that you can't build a Church in the town where the Klu Klux Klan lived. Serious, fundamental error of squaring millions and millions of reasonable muslims who have every right to practice their faith with approximately, what, twelve(?) suicidal fundamentalist maniacs from a different country who died roughly 10 years ago now.

That there is opposition to this mosque is, in my opinion, completely ridiculous. Not only are you penalising millions of totally normal reasonable people for the actions of some total crazies, but you're also acting in a way which is discriminatory, antagonising, stereotyping and insulting towards those muslims. It's picking them out and basically saying to them: you and your religion are not welcome here.

To be perfectly frank, if there was any way to confirm the fact that everything the US does is part of a religious hate-war (as many fundamental muslims believe and indeed are inspired to commit acts of terrorism by) it would be to take such a vindictive and discriminatory action against a religious group.

It doesn't even require forgiveness and reconciliation, because the people who are going to use the mosque and want it built aren't anything more to do with the people who committed the acts of 9/11 than I am to do with Neo-Nazis just because I'm white. It's the worst kind of stereotyping, to say that a whole group is evil because of the actions of a very few and then somehow use hurt feelings to justify reducing the rights of those citizens. If I'm not very much mistaken, that's how Hitler vilified the Jews.

There is a mosque right by King's Cross St. Pancras and one at Edgware Road, and if anybody wanted to chain themselves to some railings or go on hunger strike, I say let them. Pretty sure it wouldn't take too long before they were in McDonalds being served by a muslim guy behind the check-out. If they get a taste of their own medicine, perhaps he'll refuse to give them ketchup because it reminds him of his family killed by an Allied Bomb in Afghanistan to see red on an Englishman's hands. Good grief, is all I can say!

This kind of petty stuff makes me really angry. Yes something terrible has happened. No, unrelated people do not need to suffer for it just because some people can't mentally sort fundamentalist craziness from the normal people in the street. If they want to create a centre for 'terrorist activities', they can do so far more efficiently in a house frequented only by themselves than in a public place of worship where they'll be surrounded by tourists and the reasonable majority.

You can remove or lock this topic if you want- I just had a heated conversation with my friends (who have far worse arguments than me) when I showed them the article, and I wanted more opinions on it because I didn't like the stuff that came out.

I did know that there were mosques there, but I wasn't sure how recent they were, so I took a gamble. It didn't pay off, I admit. I'm sorry.

[Sandwich]

You can remove or lock this topic if you want- I just had a heated conversation with my friends (who have far worse arguments than me) when I showed them the article, and I wanted more opinions on it because I didn't like the stuff that came out.

I did know that there were mosques there, but I wasn't sure how recent they were, so I took a gamble. It didn't pay off, I admit. I'm sorry.

Do I take it from this that you've changed your opinion? I didn't mean to condemn you, so no need to apologise. Debates are for people to share their opinions on things, usually in the hope of changing those of others. Everybody is entitled to have one, although I'm not going to pretend that I always agree with it! No point in ending a debate without people having their say, whatever that say might be, so unless you particularly want this thread locked, I'll leave it. Didn't mean to come off scary!!

[x___x]

I have a limited knowledge about this issue, and therefore, my answer will be limited to this knowledge.

First, why don't you look at the bright side of it? You're always too "not so nice" when the topic shifts to Islam. Why? I have no idea!

I don't know the real reasons behind choosing that spot in particular for the construction of the mosque, but I presume that they are choosing it so that they erase the bad picture about Islam, to give a better picture; to repent for a sin they didn't commit, to be specific. Yes, they didn't do anything. The people who got the twin towers down are NOT the same as the ones who have the plans for constructing the mosque now, or are they?

Why would we, Muslim, have to be exposed to this intolerance just because other Muslims have done something wrong, that we have nothing, whatsoever, to do with?

Why do you have to jump to quick conclusions about the reasons behind building the mosque based on nothing but guesses!

Why don't you see this project as a sign of a better future, one where people from different religions can mingle together without any grudges?

I'm like you, I don't know what will happen in the future, but presuming that this project will turn into a centre for terrorist activities is not an appealing idea. It means that you people are adhering terrorism to our peaceful religion, just because you feel like it!

There are good Muslims, and there are bad Muslims, like any other religion! We're normal humans, for god's sake, we're not evil creatures who have no goal in life but to destroy & destroy! Why can't people get this idea, is something beyond me.

This is a fact from in Quran, which no Muslim can deny, it tackles one of the reasons for our existence on this earth: We are here to rebuild the world: change it to a better world. So, if any Muslim is destroying the world under the name of Islam, then please don't say that Islam is bad; that person is bad is the most suitable statement to describe the situation!

Sorry to write this long, but I had to defend my religion because it has nothing to do with terrorism.

[AGBellamy]

Firstly: No. I have not changed my opinion because it's not technically my opinion- it's meant to be a compound of some of the 'lighter' arguments that came up yesterday. I'm quite socially inept, and although I make friends easily, it's hard for me to debate something like this because I'm instantly judged as an extremist before I've gotten two words out.

Secondly (for x___x): I'm sorry if I offended you. I'm part of my college debate team, and the system we've been using in our lessons is to start off with a negative-sounding argument. It works quite well, and we've got some very interesting transcripts.

I've got nothing against Muslims. In fact, the friend who was most against the mosque has a Muslim father. The whole point of this topic was to get different opinions and, although I'm mildly allodoxaphobic, to get opinions against what I was saying. I can see from some of the responses that it worked.

[Sandwich]

it's hard for me to debate something like this because I'm instantly judged as an extremist before I've gotten two words out.

I think that's one of the good things about debating though, that people aren't judged, their views are. The whole point of it is not to make a case for you as a person but to make a case for your point of view. At competitive debates they usually give you a point of view about 5 minutes prior to starting. I know I've done some which were very much against what I believe (pro-legalising guns, anti-right to have an abortion etc.) and it's an interesting challenge to try and make it work. However the trick is that, even whilst you may have to argue against your own beliefs, you recognise that you still remain separate from what you're saying.

After all, a debate isn't about you as a person, it's about a series of ideas. If the ideas you present are extreme, then yes, people will point out that those ideas are extreme. It's then left to you to show that they're not extreme by giving your own version of justification. If you find your own ideas extreme and feel negatively judged for it, then think to yourself: why do I hold ideas which I feel uncomfortable with? It's all about the ideas, not about people.

Basically what I'm trying to say is not to worry. Debates are not social: they're intellectual. You have to present an argument, not your moral character.

Out of curiosity, if what you posted initially isn't your opinion, then what is? O:

[AGBellamy]

I think that's one of the good things about debating though, that people aren't judged, their views are. The whole point of it is not to make a case for you as a person but to make a case for your point of view. At competitive debates they usually give you a point of view about 5 minutes prior to starting. I know I've done some which were very much against what I believe (pro-legalising guns, anti-right to have an abortion etc.) and it's an interesting challenge to try and make it work. However the trick is that, even whilst you may have to argue against your own beliefs, you recognise that you still remain separate from what you're saying.

After all, a debate isn't about you as a person, it's about a series of ideas. If the ideas you present are extreme, then yes, people will point out that those ideas are extreme. It's then left to you to show that they're not extreme by giving your own version of justification. If you find your own ideas extreme and feel negatively judged for it, then think to yourself: why do I hold ideas which I feel uncomfortable with? It's all about the ideas, not about people.

Basically what I'm trying to say is not to worry. Debates are not social: they're intellectual. You have to present an argument, not your moral character.

Out of curiosity, if what you posted initially isn't your opinion, then what is? O:

That's why I like debating Also, the irony of it is that I'm the only IB student on the team.

Most of this post is a sum-up of how the conversation went yesterday, and the only thing that's mine is:

"It's not even been 10 years since 9/11 and most of the people affected by it have been severely traumatised. I agree that everyone should be able to move on, but like I said before: it's too soon. A more appropriate time gap would be about 50 years."

[x___x]

Secondly (for x___x): I'm sorry if I offended you. I'm part of my college debate team, and the system we've been using in our lessons is to start off with a negative-sounding argument. It works quite well, and we've got some very interesting transcripts.

I've got nothing against Muslims. In fact, the friend who was most against the mosque has a Muslim father. The whole point of this topic was to get different opinions and, although I'm mildly allodoxaphobic, to get opinions against what I was saying. I can see from some of the responses that it worked.

No, no, you didn't offend me in any way. It's just the part about your friend and his opinion that was somehow offending.

[AGBellamy]

Secondly (for x___x): I'm sorry if I offended you. I'm part of my college debate team, and the system we've been using in our lessons is to start off with a negative-sounding argument. It works quite well, and we've got some very interesting transcripts.

I've got nothing against Muslims. In fact, the friend who was most against the mosque has a Muslim father. The whole point of this topic was to get different opinions and, although I'm mildly allodoxaphobic, to get opinions against what I was saying. I can see from some of the responses that it worked.

No, no, you didn't offend me in any way. It's just the part about your friend and his opinion that was somehow offending.

Like I said, she suffers from paranoia, and she's also into conspiracy theories which makes it hard for me to tell when she's being serious or on the brink of a panic attack.

[Rue]

Calling it the "ground zero mosque" in the first place is ridiculous. It's TWO WHOLE BLOCKS away from Ground Zero plus it's an Islamic commuity centre. It's being built on the site on an old coat factory, hardly "hallowed ground" now. Plus, there is already a mosque four blocks away from Ground Zero. Where's the line? Two blocks away is too much, but four is ok? How many grains are in a heap of sand?

Secondly, and even more importantly, lets look at the first amendment of the American constitution. It says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." Furthermore, in a letter he wrote shortly after becoming president, Thomas Jefferson wrote "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State." America is supposed to be a country of freedom. Look at the first settlers, they came to America to escape religious persecution in their own countries. You cannot tell people where they can or cannot congregate under the name of their religion. We have to ask ourselves, if it was a church, synagogue, temple etc being built there would there be a controversy? No, I expect not. Yet there is with this Islamic building, which is a violation of the fundemental right of religious freedom. I'm absolutely appalled that this is even happening, I think it's terrible. Of course 9/11 is a massive deal and of course the pain is not going to go away. But how exactly does this help? Al Quaeda is NOT Islam, just a tiny tiny tiny tiny little faction of extremists who have values which are way different from the teachings of Islam. In the wake of such a disaster do we really want to alienate and discriminate against a religion? Now, we should be promoting peace, tolerance and inclusion in memory of all those people who lost their lives.

[Windstorm G-man]

Muslim does not denote terrorist.

Why punish the good people of Islam for something a tiny group of extremists did? The whole argument is nonsensical and, I think, quite racist.

[Patel108]

So what does everyone think about the gay bar being opened next to the mosque?

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/greg-gutfield-to-open-a-gay-bar-next-to-ground-zero-mosque-to-cater-to-islamic-gay-men/

[Narcissist]

Religion is a part of culture and does not indicate whether a person is evil or good. Idiots are just everywhere. So often a small group of people bring down the faces of many...

[Windstorm G-man]

So what does everyone think about the gay bar being opened next to the mosque?

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/greg-gutfield-to-open-a-gay-bar-next-to-ground-zero-mosque-to-cater-to-islamic-gay-men/

Honestly, my first thoughts in reading this were that this Gutfield guy was opening the gay bar to try and deter Islamic peoples from attending the Ground Zero Mosque. That, I can imagine, is what will happen. This will be treated as an insult to Islam, even if it is an attempt to remove the homophobic barriers that surround the religion.