USA vs Australia Undergraduate Studies

[emmak]

Hello, after looking around, I decided to post my question since I couldn't find any relevant posts.

I'm wanting to do my undergraduate studies in psychology in either the USA or Australia. I've lived in America for 11 years, but since Australia seems much cheaper, I'm also interested in it.

My question is: does anyone know differences in the undergrad studies in these countries? If I complete the B.A. in either, does the accreditation transfer between the two countries? I am also wanting to do graduate psychology studies after a 3 or 4 year Bachelor's degree... any opinions on where to do this? I figured that if I completed my B.A. in Australia and then moved to the US for masters studies, this would reduce costs. (?) Or is it more sensible to do it the other way around? I've never been to Australia before so I'm a bit apprehensive about dropping everything and hopping on over there... if I could get some opinions from Australians here, that would be great!

Again, my main worry is the cost. Australian universities seem much cheaper than US or EU ones... but I'm worried about how the credits will transfer. On most uni pages it says something along the lines of:

The Bachelor of Psychology (and the Bachelor of Psychological Science with Honours) are designed to meet the accreditation requirements of the Australian Psychology Accreditation Council.

After successfully completing the program you'll be eligible for general registration, with probationary conditions, as a psychologist in Queensland and be able to obtain associate membership with the Australian Psychological Society.

Full registration as a psychologist requires a further two years of approved postgraduate study or supervised on-the-job training with a registered psychologist.

Thanks in advance for the help, sorry if this question is not very focused... there's so much stuff that I still have to figure out!

[Xelar]

Your flag is Finnish - do you not own an EU passport? If you do you may qualify for the EU/home rate in the UK, which is quite cheap... it's around 3,500 pounds per year. Is that an option for you or are you set on the US/Australia?

For Australia:

You'll have to consider moving costs, can you financially afford it, are you willing to make a complete change in lifestyle etc. Health care is imperative and can be quite expensive. You'll need to look into visas, the requirements for having a part time job if you want it etc. Since you've never been there, it's hard to make a decision. It may not even appeal to you, and you don't want to find that out too late. I'm an Australian who lives abroad and I want to study in the UK, so I'm in a similar predicament with the fees.

You could consider doing a year abroad in Australia.

I don't know how much help that is... I honestly have no idea about their programs. You might have to take that up with a specific university.

Here's a site that you may find informative:

http://www.graduateshotline.com/australia.html

[Vvi]

Just being Finnish isn't enough to get you EU prices at European universities. The rule is that EU citizens must have been living in the EEA (European Economics Area, so EU, Switzerland and Liechtenstein) for the 3 years before university. If you haven't, you must be able to prove that you have been living abroad because of your parents' work (ie there's no choice but to live abroad if your parents work for the Red Cross or something similar). However, if you've been living abroad just because your parents feel like it, you have to pay international fees (which are about 20,000 pounds).

So it may well be cheaper for her to go to the US or Australia.

[Forester]

Going to Australia for Bachelors and then to the US for masters sounds like a great idea. I would certainly take that path. However remember that graduate school entrance is selective, so you can't slack off while studying in Australia.

[emmak]

Thanks for the replies! Yes, I am a Finnish citizen, but I have only lived here for under a year. I did live in America because of my dad's work, but it was mostly voluntary on his part, I think. So the international fees would apply. I've never really considered Britain as a choice because I've heard it costs a lot, and the culture is not "so" different from the places I've lived, and I really feel like I want to experience something completely new! I'm already looking to the visas, health care, and living costs in Australia. I have diabetes and need medical supplies all the time, so there might be some snags in that part. The visa doesn't seem too hard to acquire once you're accepted and whatnot. *shrug* From what I've been reading online, it's quite cheap to live in Australia! Obviously not the large cities like Melbourne or Sydney, where it's more expensive... but I guess wherever I move, I'll have to pay for accommodation, books, food, etc. America always seemed kinda expensive, and here in Finland it seems VERY expensive. Overall, the cultural experience in Australia would be great... I'm worried about the costs, and also how the credits will transfer to wherever I move after that. Another perk is that the Bachelors degree is 3 years in Australia, so you don't have to pay for that extra "freshman year" in America that has nothing to do with your major. I less year until my degree? At lower tuition costs? At lower costs of living? I guess I'm being too optimistic and just seeing the positives here...

[faith]

I am an international high school student studying in Melbourne. If your main problem is cost then I think it is wise to study your undergraduate degree in Australia first, but keep in mind that many American universities offer financial assistance as well. I guess you can always apply to both countries, and then decide after you get your financial aid offer.

[Vvi]

American universities have been offering more financial assistance to domestic students than internationals recently (the recession isn't helping things). So if you're applying to the US, make sure your finances are in order before you accept a place there. At least if you are an international student going to study in the UK, you need proof that you will have enough money to cover your living expenses (I'm not sure if they require proof that you will have enough money to cover your expenses for the entire duration of your studies, ask Aboo since he mentioned something about the Australian immigration authorities wanting proof that he had $120,000 to pay for 4 years of tuition).

For Australia, you must be able to pay your tuition fees up front (and not in increments throughout the year). An average estimate of prices is given here, http://www.justlanded.com/english/Australia/Australia-Guide/Education/University , I think they're in AUD but I'm not sure.

Finland is only expensive in terms of living costs, which are probably similar throughout most of Europe. And you can get a student loan to help you out, you only have to pay it back 6-8 years after you graduate (depending on how long your degree is). There are also no tuition fees, which is a plus, and the University of Helsinki is ranked in the top 100 in the world (63rd I think). However, entrance to universities is competitive, which is one reason I didn't apply (and their entrance exams are so soon after the IB ones that I wouldn't have enough time to study for them).

[emmak]

Yeah, Finland DOES seem like a really good option, but my Finnish isn't strong enough to take the entrance tests in Finnish. About those tuition fees... I definitely do NOT have $120,000 sitting around in a bank account, so I'm relying completely on scholarships and loans. Do you have to have proof of the total tuition amount regardless of scholarships? Like, say you get a scholarship for 50% of tuition, do you still have to prove that you have enough to pay for school without that scholarship? That's something I've never really fully understood, and it definitely IS one of the most important things to know! If anyone has help, I appreciate it! One more question... since I'm a member of the EU, I've read that there's a cap on the tuition amount that UK unis can charge (like 3400 pounds or something?). Is there a condition to this about having to live in the EU for a certain amount of years? I read this on a website (that I didn't feel was too reliable) that you have to have lived in the EU for a minimum of 3 years for this to apply, otherwise you have to pay the international student tuition in the UK. Thanks for the help!

[Abu]

Yes there was a condition for me to show 3 years tuition and costs up front, but that won't be the case for you Emma because you're a different nationality than me. My nationality is Assessment Level 4, the worst of the lot who are doubted beyond belief. Finland should be Assessment Level 1, which means that to get your student visa, all you need to do is sign a declaration. Discrimination at its finest.

[deissi]

since I'm a member of the EU

When did individual persons become eligible to become EU member states? (ok... [/idiot] after this)

When you go on any university website, you'll find their tuition fees pretty easily. For EU students, it is maximum 3400 pounds (roughly). However, the rule is that you must have spent at least 3 years within the European Economic Area, so if you've lived in the States with your family, you are not automatically eligible for 'home fees'. However, you should receive home fee status after negotiating with the university if (when!) you manage to convince them that you lived outside the EU (EEA) because of your parents' work, not for personal reasons. I think Vvi did this successfully, I'm sure she will confirm it shortly.

Also, you might want to take a look at Scottish universities like St Andrews and Edinburgh to name the two best. St Andrews is ranked 6th best in the UK if I remember correctly, so it's top grade education, but - *drumroll and serenades* - it's free of charge; the Scottish government pays all EU students' fees in full to your university. You'll only end up paying a graduation fee of about 2000£ when you graduate, so the cost of a degree is very low.

Aboo, I would think that UK discrimination between home and overseas students is even more discriminating; instead of having to show the money, you actually have to have more than triple the money that an EU student has to have.

[emmak]

OOH! Thanks for the replies, you answered all of my questions! I hate feeling so "in the dark" about all of this... so I love that I can get advice from you guys! I've never considered Scotland as an option (I think the accents in the UK throw me off a bit, with me being so Americanized now!) but I'm definitely going to look it up. I know there's a couple people from my IB class that are considering Scotland as an option, especially because of the cost. It's good to hear that the student visas shouldn't be a problem... I've had so much trouble with visas in the past, I'm glad that one's not going on the "Possible Problems" list! I seemed to have my hear set on Australia since the moment I heard about Griffith University and the beaches... but I'm so willing to look at this whole situation objectively and find the most affordable option for me! I have no clue why I'm not so thrilled about the UK, but I'm sure that will change as I look up more about it. And I'm sure that with my trip to the States in 2 weeks, I'll be more inclined to stay there, as well! LOL! I guess I'm just too easily swayed... Thanks for the help, guys!

[Vvi]

Yes I'm being charged EU fees at Leeds next year and I've lived outside Finland for the past 16 years. I didn't think I would get awarded home fees, because I read on some site that usually students that have lived outside the EU for more than 13 years get denied it. Guess I'm an exception then. But on my UCAS application, I picked "EU fees" and then had to write a list of all the schools I've attended over the past 10 years (so they saw that I wasn't currently living in the EU). Then after sending my application, universities began to send me fee status forms (some sent them after they offered me a place, like Leeds, and others like Nottingham sent me the forms to fill in before they offered me a place). I sent an email to Leeds myself, asking what status I was because they hadn't told me when they agve me the offer. I had to fill the forms in and send them by post/scan them onto the computer and email them. I attached lots of evidence, like copies of my father's work contracts, a copy of our house ownership in Finland, KELA documents which showed our status to be "Temporarily resident outside the EU" and medical insurance cards. I also had to attach copies of all my family members' passports. Some of the documents I sent were in Finnish and didn't have an English translation, which I don't think mattered.

I got awarded "Home fee status" by 3 universities out of 5, the other 2 would probably have given it to me but they didn't offer me places for next year so I didn't get to find out. So you can try applying to UK universities (what deissi said is true, no universities in Scotland charge any tuition fees for EU students), and see if they give you home fees. You have to be persuasive, I wrote an entire separate paragraph to Leeds saying why I thought I deserved home fees e.g. all my family lives in Finland, my parents had "planned to move back in 2006 but my father's work contract was extended further" (which wasn't really true, my family had no intention of moving back but my father's job changed at that point so my mother said I should say that), I planned to move back to the EU as soon as I finished school here in Jerusalem, etc.

However, when I applied for a tuition fees loan from England (which all EU students that are classed as home students can do), they told me that I hadn't lived in the EU for the past 3 years, and so couldn't get the loan. Which is stupid of them, since I had written that my universities had told me I was a home student. But it doesn't matter for me since (hopefully) I'll get a loan from a Finnish bank, as well as oppilastuki and asuntolisä from KELA.

Universities in England (this excludes Scottish universities, which follow a different system) are only allowed to charge a maximum of £3225 tuition fees for EU and UK students for 2009-2010 (the amount rises slightly each yera by about £100 due to inflation). They can charge less than this if they wish, very few do. For international fees, I believe that there are no restrictions (and courses like medicine are the most expensive, running over £20,000 usually while other courses are slightly cheaper by one or two thousand pounds). Each unievrsity has a certain quota of EU students that they are allowed to offer places to and accept each year, and if they take more then they get fined. Theoretically international students should have an easier time getting accepted as universities rely on them to pay the majority of their costs, and since they pay more of course universities want as many internationals as they can.

If you applied to a university in the UK, flights home would be cheaper for you since it's not as far as Australia and you also wouldn't have to apply for a visa/work permit since EU nationals are allowed to work without restrictions in any EU country. I don't know how long degrees in Australia usually take to complete, but in the UK full-time degrees take 3 years (and 4 with an exchange year/work placement). You could always apply to go on an exchange program to Australia in 3rd year. Living fees in the UK are approximately £10,000 pounds a year (add 2000 to this if you will study in London), and that figure includes rent for housing/food/clothes/books/entertainment, etc. but doesn't include tuition fees. I don't know if Australian living costs are a lot cheaper in comparison.

Edited May 17, 2009 by Vvi

[emmak]

That's a lot of really valuable information, thanks! I'm sure with all the right documentation (like you had) I could get the home student status thingie. And I didn't know about the work permit thing in the EU! I guess I've been gone for so long that I really don't know about any of the systems here! I've heard it's REALLY expensive to live in London... so I'm guessing I shouldn't be shooting for a university near there. Would a university that's farther be really "isolated"? I'm really wanting to be a part of a new, different culture when I go to university, so if I'm stuck in some tiny British city with only a local pub and uni... I think I might want something bigger. Having never been to England or the UK, I can't even fathom what cities are like there. What about admissions in the UK? What kind of IB scores are they looking for? I'm predicted around 37-42 (never got official predicteds). Just wondering what kind of points I need to be shooting for if I want to be accepted at Edinburgh or another "well ranked" university! It's getting late, but tomorrow during skip hours I'll be sure to read up on UK universities and add the info to my ever-growing "university plans" notebook!

[Abu]

Do remember that in Australia and NZ, an Honours degree is an additional year after your bachelors making it a 4 year degree, but in the UK, it's all incorporated into one. And the US, with the honours year would be 5 years. That is, if the university has the honours year option.

[emmak]

I'm not too familiar with honors degrees (probably since they don't do them often in the States, from what I know)... but what exactly is it? From the Australian university websites I gathered that it is an extra year of research that helps lead into the master's degree. So, in the UK the three years includes the honors degree? Does it include more classes? Or is it just a different mark on a diploma? Not that I'm in a hurry, but I would like to get my undergraduate studies done as soon as possible. Because I graduated high school, and now the IB, I've fallen behind from my original class... which really doesn't matter, it's just feels different somehow. *shrug* In the US, the first year of college is basically a primer year where you don't take many classes toward your major... is it like this in the UK? Thanks for the help... I have so many thoughts running around my head, I'm sorry if this is a bit erratic and nonsensical! 8)

[Abu]

Universities in the US are laid back. Point made. Going to the US ends up being more expensive since it is a 4 year degree, you will do far more stuff that is useless and of no relevance to your major. There have been quite a few students that go the US from the UK on exchange, and just come back saying that the standard of education is completely dumbed down. Which is why students in the UK, Australia and NZ can go on to do Medicine or Law degrees directly from university unlike the US where it is only available as a post graduate option.

In the UK, a 3 year degree includes honours so that is the highest qualification that you can receive in a bachelors education.

Keep in mind that, if you go to Scotland, the degree will be 4 years long and if you choose to go to St Andrews, you can get a MA for most disciples which is essentially a Masters degree. In Scotland, from what I know of St Andrews, degrees are more Americanised, in the sense that you will start your specialisation in the last 2 years. Someone can correct me here if that's not the case.

Avoid the US if you can, I think that unless you get a place at the Ivies where your degree actually counts for its name, it's a waste of money to get a substandard education whilst paying international fees. Go for it if you're getting it subsidised in some form or manner. Sure the degree does get recognised but what's the point if you're not challenging yourself academically?

And it would be easier if you decide where you want to go. I spent the entirety of last year doing that and it drove me insane. Ended up deciding on NZ, which with the current exchange rate is pretty cheap. But the costs are comparable to the UK since the British Pound isn't that strong at the moment either.

[Ruan Chun Xian]

To be honest, if you want to go to university in Australia, it would certainly be a different experience for you, but if you want "cheap" living expenses you certainly should not be heading for Sydney or Melbourne, where, as if living expenses were not high enough, state laws make it legal to discriminate against international students on certain issues (e.g. travel concession - public transport costs an arm and a leg here and there is no concession for international students). I'm not sure about visa, but as Aboo said, being from Finland you should have an easier time at it. For my visa I was under Level 3 which believe me was a hassle. 3 months for student visa is just ridiculous - this is AFTER I've done all my proofs of financials.

[Vvi]

The UK university system is not the same as the American one. In the US, the first year basicallly goes to waste because you have to take all classes and they want to make sure that everyone has the same level of English, Math, etc. In the UK, you take modules that are only relevant to your course (in some universities like Leeds, all students not taking IT as an undergraduate program must take a semester or two of IT classes to ensure that they have the necessary skills to research/write papers, etc. but that's the only extra class).

As for "isolated", very few universities in the UK are isolated. Most are in the center of a large city (like Leeds, which has a population of 750,000 and is one of the biggest cities in the UK), or just outside the city (like the University of Nottingham). Some universities are more "campus-like", such as Warwick, which is situated in the countryside and is between two cities (Coventry and some otehr one which are quite small). Others like St Andrews are in small towns (population 18,000), or Exeter. If you want to be in a large city, then you can decide to apply to universities in cities like Edinburgh, Glasgow, York, Manchester, Bristol, Sheffield, etc. Here is a link to university rankings in the UK, http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/tol_gug/gooduniversityguide.php , and if you click on the university name you can see it's profile. Bear in mind that the rankings change every year and change according to who is conducting the survey/what they assess the universities on.

With predicteds of 37-42, you should be able to get into good universities. Most good universities want scores of 33 and up (such as Manchester, which wants around a 35), right up to Cambridge and Oxford who usually require 42+. You haven't mentioned what you're interested in studying, but you can find a list of all the courses offered in UK universities at www.ucas.com The application process begins in September and lasts until mid-January, the entire process is done online. You can apply to a maximum of 5 universities; when deciding what courses+universities to apply to, make sure you read through a description of the modules. I didn't do so before I applied, and wouldn't have applied to Edinburgh I had known what their modules contained. The Politics modules sounded very dry and theoretical to me after I read through them, and included too much on British politics. You can find module and course programmes online; an example is the one for Intl Relations at Leeds, http://webprod1.leeds.ac.uk/catalogue/dynprogrammes.asp?Y=200708&P=BA-INT%2FR , where you can click on each module and read what you will be studying, and see if what they offer is what you want. All universities have these on their websites, they may be a little difficult to find.

The ebst thing you can do is visit universities first hand to see if their atmosphere and location are what you're looking for. I didn't have a chance to do so, but my classmate did and she said very positive things about Leeds. There are also lots of university review websites written by students, where they give both positive and negative aspects of their universities. I took into consideration factors like transport (I don't want to spend a lot on bus cards), location of the university (inside the city is preferable for me) as well as the Student Union (which was voted the best in England last year) and the facilities they offer (I don't do much sports but they have some clubs I like). There are 113 universities in England, which makes the choice slightly narrower than the US, and so it's easier to decide (a tip: don't apply to any universities that have the word "Metropolitan" in their name, as they are new ones and aren't ranked as high).

[deissi]

To slightly correct something that Viivi said: Oxford usually requires 39-40 points without HL requirements (bonus included). Cambridge usually requires 42 and 7-7-6 or 7-6-6 at HL.

[emmak]

Oh man, am I lucky to have found you guys! Aboo, I definitely AM going insane trying to decide where I want to go! I was always so set on staying in the States forever, but since I had to move, I see everything in such a new perspective, and I am so glad! I'm very much a perfectionist, so I want the one place that I decide to go to be the BEST place! I have a hard time settling for second best, but I know that once I make a decision, I'll be the happiest person on Earth!

This process is helping me so much! First I ruled out Finland because of the entrance exams, and now US is most likely out of the picture. This leaves me with UK, Australia, and NZ. Just getting this far takes a weight off my shoulders! There are way too many cons for the US: tuition costs, living costs, visas, and sucky education. I know what you mean about schools being "dumbed down", I experienced this in high school already. And I'm going to university to LEARN, not to party or join teams... the education is DEFINITELY the most important thing for me. Hands down.

As for Australia, I wasn't planning on heading to the big cities. Based on the research I've done so far, the east coast looks a lot "smaller" than cities like Sydney, so I would definitely study on that side. Surprisingly, Australia (and I guess NZ has similar prices) has become my most expensive option! Although I DO want a cultural experience, I'm thinking that maybe a year abroad would be better... at some point in my education.

And then there's the UK. I'm glad to hear that the cities aren't "isolated"... I want something a little bit bigger than my current city of 175,000. I don't know if I'm shooting quite as high as Oxford or Cambridge, but I know that I have lots of research to do now that I've switched gears a little bit. Psychology is the area that I'm wanting to major in, and I already have several pages saved with "rankings" of the undergraduate degree programs. The degree should transfer between countries, correct? Say, I want to move back to the States after undergrad, the UK degree would be equivalent to the US? Just checking.

Aboo, wanna share your reasoning for choosing NZ? I'd be interested to know what drew you there.