Cambridge Admissions

[Garrett !?]

I'm interested in applying to Cambridge for either Engineering, Chemical Engineering, or Natural Sciences, but I have a dilemma. At Cambridge for UK full IB students, they need a 776 for certain science and math courses at HL, but unlike most UK schools, my public high school in the US only has a small amount of IB courses. I'm in Physics, Math, and Chemistry, but my school doesn't offer Math HL or Physics HL, so the only course I have that meets the requirements is Chemistry HL. Thus my question is: due to me being an international student, will I still be reviewed for my course selection under the UK standards for full IB students and do I have any grounds since my school does not offer those subjects at HL and English and History are required to be taken at HL?

I've taken a few AP courses, but I don't think enough in my last two years of high school to apply that way. I've already taken:

AP Human Geography 5

AP World History 4

And I plan on taking:

AP Chemistry

AP Calculus AB

Is it also possible to get in if I get a good score on my SAT IIs in Math2, Chemistry, and Physics? Since the IB thing might not work out is there any course I can take to be eligible to get into Cambridge?

Wow that was long... Thanks!

[Sandwich]

You'll have to ring them up and plead your case to find out the real answer. There's a small possibility they'll let you off, but the thing is that Physics HL and Maths HL are required because they are presumed knowledge for the course, rather than just random things they want from you. It would also mean that everybody else applying would be doing much harder subjects than you!

On the other hand you can't help what your school has restricted you to, so... ring them They may want you to try and take those subjects (or equivalents) outside of school. I'm not sure whether SATs/APs would count, but you'll have to ask.

[elaifyanre]

Since you don't have these subjects at HL I think you have to take AP classes to fulfill the requirement.

http://www.study.cam.ac.uk/undergraduate/apply/requirements/

Advanced Placement Tests

Successful applicants normally have high passes in the High School Diploma and the SAT, and 5s in at least five Advanced Placement Tests in appropriate subjects.

I'm not sure if geography and history counts as appropriate subjects, and you might want to take AP physics B (or C if you can).

Calculus AB is probably not enough for the A level mathematics requirement (calculus topic), and calculus BC is roughly equivalent to the calculus topic in A level further mathematics (not the whole subject, and there are things not covered such as differential equations).

If you pass STEP (which is sometimes required for engineering or natural sciences) you'll get the mathematics required for the course, but I don't know if that's enough for admission.

Or you can self-study math HL and physics HL, which can be very hard but their internal assessments are both the same for HL and SL (for mathematics you'll have to put in stuff covered in the HL syllabus) so they are self-study-able. If you do that you might want to take the calculus option for math HL though.

[Lynxarin]

Since you don't have these subjects at HL I think you have to take AP classes to fulfill the requirement.

http://www.study.cam.ac.uk/undergraduate/apply/requirements/

Advanced Placement Tests

Successful applicants normally have high passes in the High School Diploma and the SAT, and 5s in at least five Advanced Placement Tests in appropriate subjects.

I'm not sure if geography and history counts as appropriate subjects, and you might want to take AP physics B (or C if you can).

Calculus AB is probably not enough for the A level mathematics requirement (calculus topic), and calculus BC is roughly equivalent to the calculus topic in A level further mathematics (not the whole subject, and there are things not covered such as differential equations).

If you pass STEP (which is sometimes required for engineering or natural sciences) you'll get the mathematics required for the course, but I don't know if that's enough for admission.

Or you can self-study math HL and physics HL, which can be very hard but their internal assessments are both the same for HL and SL (for mathematics you'll have to put in stuff covered in the HL syllabus) so they are self-study-able. If you do that you might want to take the calculus option for math HL though.

Are you really sure that self studying Maths HL or Physics HL is possible? Because my IB-coordinator told me that IBO don't allow any other subjects to be self-studied except for language?

[flinquinnster]

Like Sandwich, I think the best way to find out would be to contact Cambridge directly to ask them whether they would accept alternate qualifications if you can't do Maths or Physics HL. Particularly, if you are interested in any specific colleges, ask those colleges directly on their opinion of your situation. Whilst some of the larger and more prestigious colleges may not be so lenient given the tough competition, there may be some other colleges who would understand your situation.

I personally think that the SAT subject tests in Maths II and Physics wouldn't really provide sufficient knowledge for the degrees you're interested in - having done them, Maths II is dead easy compared to IB Maths HL and I found the Physics test to be far easier than even IB Physics SL. So, whilst they may be acceptable in demonstrating maths/physics proficiency, they wouldn't prepare you for admissions in general.

I know very little about AP tests, but whilst geography might just sneak through as 'appropriate', I don't think world history would. You would want to do the hardest AP exams you can in maths, physics, chemistry and as to the other subject(s) you may have to inquire/research directly as to what would be relevant (if natural sciences ends up being your interest, then biology would be useful). And as ssy mentioned above, it may still not cover what is required preparation for the degree.

As to self-studying Maths and Physics HL, I agree with ssy in saying that they are self study-able in theory, with similar IAs to SL. However, it would be incredibly tough - and it would be advisable to have a teacher/someone that you could bother with questions and problems that you encounter.

In the end, if you are really keen on Cambridge, then the best way to go is to contact them directly and ask what they would want you to do in your situation!

[Garrett !?]

Thanks for the responses everyone, I'm going to determine which colleges I'd be most interested in and email them directly. At my school you can only take the AP/IB exams for courses you're enrolled in, thus my schedule can't accommodate enough of the classes to get in based on AP exams. I might also talk with my IB coordinator about taking HL Math because I've had a 98+ in SL Math all year and that's with not really paying attention in class.

Placement tests are something I can take. I'm assuming they're on the level of if not easier than IB Physics and Math, and AP Chemistry, but those won't be what I could use to get in, correct?

Also for the whole college system, is there much difference besides where in London they're located and how new they are, or are some better known for certain subjects?

[flinquinnster]

If you are doing quite well in SL Maths, then it would be a good idea to try and get enrolled to do exams/IAs in HL Maths - though keep in mind that doing incredibly well in SL Maths does not guarantee doing well in HL, because the problems are of a far greater difficulty and actually require some level of insight and ingenuity.

In terms of the role of the entrance/placement tests, you are right in saying that they can't replace the role of IB/AP in fulfilling the requirements to get in. You still have to take those entrance tests and your admission will be based on the results of the test(s), but you can't get in solely using the test(s). Depending on the exact subject that you would apply for, you would have to take the TSA, possibly have to write a 30-minute essay, and possibly have to do STEP (for mathematics). I really have no idea as to the difficulty of these entrance tests compared to IB/AP, but from what I've heard of STEP at least, it requires knowledge even beyond that of IB Maths HL - for example, you would have to study more mechanics. However, I think that TSA is less-based on the knowledge you have and based more on aptitude.

As to the college system, whilst you do a lot of your learning in university-wide lectures and exams, colleges can matter in that they affect tutorials and resources/teachers available, and reputation. They are also located in different places, and have different characteristics (though some of it is based on stereotypes). Some internet research should help you find out more information about different colleges. However, just in terms of something to keep in mind, Cambridge is not actually in London but just over an hour out!

[Sandwich]

Also for the whole college system, is there much difference besides where in London they're located and how new they are, or are some better known for certain subjects?

How can you say you want to apply somewhere when you have literally no clue where it is or even what it is?

"Where in New York is Texas and which of its towns has the best Universities? I need to know because I wish to apply"

[elaifyanre]

Are you really sure that self studying Maths HL or Physics HL is possible? Because my IB-coordinator told me that IBO don't allow any other subjects to be self-studied except for language?

I did self-study further maths, but that class has no internal assessment and I convinced my IBC that I'll do fine.

I've never heard of that requirement, but I don't think IBO would know that you are self-studying a class unless the IBC informs them that. Even so, I'm occasionally asking the teachers questions so it's not completely self-studying by definition.

[Lynxarin]

Are you really sure that self studying Maths HL or Physics HL is possible? Because my IB-coordinator told me that IBO don't allow any other subjects to be self-studied except for language?

I did self-study further maths, but that class has no internal assessment and I convinced my IBC that I'll do fine.

I've never heard of that requirement, but I don't think IBO would know that you are self-studying a class unless the IBC informs them that. Even so, I'm occasionally asking the teachers questions so it's not completely self-studying by definition.

Okay, well he just said that the IBO only allows languages to be self-studied when I wanted to self-study economics, but he changed the schedule instead so I could study it with the rest of the group.

But anyway, how much harder is Further Maths than Maths HL? Is it a lot more content and heavier course load or what?

[Emmi]

Okay, well he just said that the IBO only allows languages to be self-studied when I wanted to self-study economics, but he changed the schedule instead so I could study it with the rest of the group.

But anyway, how much harder is Further Maths than Maths HL? Is it a lot more content and heavier course load or what?

Further maths is the hardest subject the IB offers. In a normal HL math class you will study just one option for your paper 3 topic. In further maths, you study all of the options, plus an additional (I think it's linear algebra?) topic. I would not recommend it unless you are extremely confident in your math abilities and find HL math easy.

[Lynxarin]

Okay, well he just said that the IBO only allows languages to be self-studied when I wanted to self-study economics, but he changed the schedule instead so I could study it with the rest of the group.

But anyway, how much harder is Further Maths than Maths HL? Is it a lot more content and heavier course load or what?

Further maths is the hardest subject the IB offers. In a normal HL math class you will study just one option for your paper 3 topic. In further maths, you study all of the options, plus an additional (I think it's linear algebra?) topic. I would not recommend it unless you are extremely confident in your math abilities and find HL math easy.

Oh okay, So Further Maths is really hardcore then

[Rahul]

Okay, well he just said that the IBO only allows languages to be self-studied when I wanted to self-study economics, but he changed the schedule instead so I could study it with the rest of the group.

But anyway, how much harder is Further Maths than Maths HL? Is it a lot more content and heavier course load or what?

Further maths is the hardest subject the IB offers. In a normal HL math class you will study just one option for your paper 3 topic. In further maths, you study all of the options, plus an additional (I think it's linear algebra?) topic. I would not recommend it unless you are extremely confident in your math abilities and find HL math easy.

Two additional topics - linear algebra and geometry!

[elaifyanre]

Okay, well he just said that the IBO only allows languages to be self-studied when I wanted to self-study economics, but he changed the schedule instead so I could study it with the rest of the group.

But anyway, how much harder is Further Maths than Maths HL? Is it a lot more content and heavier course load or what?

Further maths is the hardest subject the IB offers. In a normal HL math class you will study just one option for your paper 3 topic. In further maths, you study all of the options, plus an additional (I think it's linear algebra?) topic. I would not recommend it unless you are extremely confident in your math abilities and find HL math easy.

Oh okay, So Further Maths is really hardcore then

It's probably not the hardest subjectively, as I'm struggling in English more (not native) and am putting more time/effort into English than into FM. After all, anyone who takes the subject would be quite good at mathematics. It's like <insert strange language> B, no one is forced to choose it and not many school even offer it, but there are people who still take it and think it's doable if not easy (not easy for me at least).

The two additional topics are linear algebra and geometry, but then I did get the sets relations and groups option (which is probably the most abstract one) covered in class.

The options are quite hard though, but it's not like in HL math where you'll have to study most of the topics in a sequence. As long as you have the HL math knowledge all the topics are doable (although you may want to take linear algebra before geometry).

So I basically went over all the topics, went over them again, did past papers, went over the not-so-understood-but-quite-important topics, and am currently doing past papers again. The bad thing is that there is NO past paper and NO IB textbook for linear algebra, and the other options have also changed a lot this year, so not much resource for self-study. Lucky students like Erudite gets that class offered at school, which would be much better.

Edited March 30, 2014 by ssy

[Garrett !?]

I'll hopefully go meet with my IBC on Monday to see if I start now if I would be able to be prepared and able to take the HL Math exams. If that's not allowed I will start studying further levels of math anyway, to help prepare for college level math courses.

Oh wow, misconception there. My land scales were off. I thought when a college was referred to as being in the center of town that meant downtown London, whereas if it was on the edge of town that mean a suburb of London.

[Emmi]

I'll hopefully go meet with my IBC on Monday to see if I start now if I would be able to be prepared and able to take the HL Math exams. If that's not allowed I will start studying further levels of math anyway, to help prepare for college level math courses.

Oh wow, misconception there. My land scales were off. I thought when a college was referred to as being in the center of town that meant downtown London, whereas if it was on the edge of town that mean a suburb of London.

Be careful when self-studying 'higher levels of math.' You don't want to develop bad habits now or misunderstand a really crucial topic that higher levels of math build on.

Here in the US we use 'college' and 'university' interchangeably but it's not the same in the UK. In the UK a university is the entirety of the school that contains all of its departments and whatnot. A college is either a small part of a larger university (such as King's College in the University of Cambridge) or a school you go to as part of your last years of schooling before going off to a university (similar to a high school).

[Garrett !?]

Yeah, I would probably work with one of my math teachers to fully help me understand the concepts.

I understood that part, what I didn't understand was that the colleges are all located at the university. I thought it was similar to how UT is in Austin, UTD is in Dallas, and UTEP is in El Paso even though they're all University of Texas schools.

[Emmi]

I think you've confused branches/satellite campuses with colleges. A university contains all of the smaller schools (colleges) within it. So you might have The University of Texas (Austin) as the university, which contains the College of Engineering, College of Business, College of Arts and Sciences, College of Nursing, etc. Within the main university you will be part of a college that will handle your degree requirements and issue your diploma when you graduate, depending on what you choose to study.

The branch/satellite campuses (UT-Dallas, UT-El Paso, etc) are schools that while still connected to the main university, aren't the 'main' university themselves. They're typically spread out throughout the state for people who want to stay closer to home or don't want to go to the main campus. They're also usually smaller and less expensive, less difficult to get into, and don't have as many degree options.

[Sandwich]

Yes indeed because everything in the UK is somehow part of London. I don't even know where London fits into this in the first place.

Anyway, there are only a few collegiate Universities in the UK. Durham, Cambridge and Oxford are the ones that spring to mind. It means there is an over-arching University with multiple colleges within it, each of which has its own faculty and lecturers, although there are obviously larger shared departments and institutions that branch between the colleges. Together the colleges form the University as a whole, and they're all within the same town. So all the colleges of Durham are within the town of Durham. None of which are in or near London.

All other Universities here don't have any colleges, although it's in the name of some of them as a historical relic from when they did used to be sub colleges within a larger University. The University of London used to contain King's College, University College and Imperial College and now all three are separate Universities in their own right and the 'University of London' is a bit of an archaic pointless entity. So now there's a University called King's College London (KCL), one called UCL and one called Imperial.

So that's the relationship of colleges to Universities. 'College', as pointed out earlier, can also refer to 6th form colleges where you complete your last 2 years of school i.e. the IB. Unless you go to a collegiate University in which case you might want to talk about colleges, you always call University here 'University'. I can certainly understand finding this confusing! The geography not so much!

[flinquinnster]

In fairness though, there were moments in the past for me as well where I was under the impression that Cambridge was part of some massive urban agglomeration near London! But thankfully google exists to help with those awkward moments of being geographically-challenged. Doing geography all throughout high school clearly has equipped me with such great knowledge and skills.