jugad bedi Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 Yeah Apolo thanks a lot Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashikaxoxo Posted July 21, 2011 Report Share Posted July 21, 2011 I am also doing this topic and I was wondering if History and Natural Sciences could be used as the areas of knowledge? I am a little confused in how to approach this question, even after reading all this feedback...first i will define the termsthen i will explore both the point of views, giving reasoning and real life examples connecting AOK like science and history or geography.. also english literaturethen i will take one stand and give counter claimsi will also refer to the ways of knowing used.that way all the aspects of the criteria will be covered Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunnester_D Posted August 13, 2011 Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 this topic really interested me primarily when i first thought about FACTS and "the known". Each person really has their own ways of thinking and intepreting things that exist in this world. the first thing that struck me when i saw this title would naturally be Hoaxes, Myths, and more importantly CONSPIRACY THEORIES. To give an example: Princess Diana's death - accident or a planned murder?? We are given with the facts that she left the hotel at 12:20 AM with her boyfriend. they got into the car with a driver. Apparently the driver was too drunk, and she died. These are solid FACTS. Facts cannot be changed. BUT there are conspiracy theories that say otherwise and one them is concerned about a planned murder by Prince Charles. This can be reinforced with ANOTHER fact that Diana wrote a letter which describes her being disturbed as she OVERHEARD prince charles planning a murder that involves a car accident. We as humans would want to explore things until we face the ultimate TRUTH. But is Truth really just FACTS that YOU make to be True?? This relates to Logic primarily as well. For example... Lets say you believe in aliens and UFO's and other life form other than Homosapiens.... that means you see a logical reason to believe that there is other life form other than us that can be in this universe... But being logical about doesnt mean its a FACT or the ultimate TRUTH does it? Here i would say that an AOK would be Natural Sciences... and it can be Politics... For something to be logical, there has to be some Truth behind it. Truth should equal to FACT in your mind state, but doesnt necessarily have to in others.... New ways of thinking would results in new knowledge being thrown out into the croud of people like us that surve the internet really. Think about 9/11. Was it planned by the Government or do you still THINK that it was al-quada that made everything happen??? Its a really personal thing to have in mind UNLESS the CIA or any other intelligence came forward and publicly announced that they had planned the 9/11 attacks. God, i can really go on hahaahha Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Apolo Posted August 13, 2011 Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 Every single word of what you said doesn't really matter to TOK.. this is not about truth but about knowledge. There's a lot of difference. Truth if collective cannot be biased and has to be absolute whereas knowledge can.I don't mean to be harsh, but whatever you just said is simply unimportant to TOK. Facts like that are not supposed to be in an TOK essay unless they're really (and when I say really is like absolutely and undoubtedly) relevant. What you do include is personal life experiences. Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunnester_D Posted August 13, 2011 Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 Every single word of what you said doesn't really matter to TOK.. this is not about truth but about knowledge. There's a lot of difference. Truth if collective cannot be biased and has to be absolute whereas knowledge can. I don't mean to be harsh, but whatever you just said is simply unimportant to TOK. Facts like that are not supposed to be in an TOK essay unless they're really (and when I say really is like absolutely and undoubtedly) relevant. What you do include is personal life experiences. this can turn out to be a very big discussion, therefore i will just leave you to your point Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Apolo Posted August 13, 2011 Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 We can discuss, that's why we're here Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunnester_D Posted August 13, 2011 Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 We can discuss, that's why we're here Good point, but i dont want to spend time discussing things on the internet which can turn out to be a big argument... no Internet wars, i had experiences of that and it really wastes your time and i really cant waste time when i am doing IB Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Apolo Posted August 13, 2011 Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 well, I clearly haven't understood the point you made in your first post because I feel that's not what this title is about. If you want to clarify me, I'm all ears as We're not doing Internet wars ' we're here to help each others out... Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunnester_D Posted August 13, 2011 Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 well, I clearly haven't understood the point you made in your first post because I feel that's not what this title is about. If you want to clarify me, I'm all ears as We're not doing Internet wars ' we're here to help each others out... I actually accept your point that was made, because well your point is just as important as mine, us being equal.... which is again debatable... URGH i hate TOK soo much debate DUH ahhaa i was trying to say that a FACT is obviously approached differently by different people as far as the DEFINITION is concerned . We as humans when stumbled upon a fact, would always embrace it and consider it to be a fact. but for me a fact is something i have to relate to either something i DEFINITELY know or have experienced in the past. For example, i definitely know that 9/11 happened because i saw the Twin Towers coming down :/ and i took upon the fact that it had something to do with the aeroplanes hitting the towers. But then there comes certain things that would have to be challenged, such as the WTC building 7 collapsing out of nowhere whilst not being struck by an aeroplane.... even though its a fact it did come down... That creates new ways of thinking about the catastrophe. Questions like: what happened to the 4th plane that landed somewhere outside Washington D.C? why were there no bodies of dead humans lying around?? That should indeed come to NEW facts that would be discoveredd, and then the cycle would start to appear, since you would find NEW ways of approaching these facts.... To finally hit the point home, i really think that i have confused myself, maybe i havent, who knows... And the really big thing about natural sciences is that its not based primarily on facts like History, but there are things you can debate about, highly because we make a lot of assumptions when we carry out calculations, such as in Physics. As you said, knowledge can be biased if collectively taken together, and i personally agree with you . Then a question arises if there is common knowledge, like common sense - since the FACT that common sense isnt always common because we are all differently mind orientated. The thing is that im not trying to argue with you, im trying to explain my point, which by the way isnt soo indepth as i thought it would be really hahaha Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Apolo Posted August 13, 2011 Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 well, I clearly haven't understood the point you made in your first post because I feel that's not what this title is about. If you want to clarify me, I'm all ears as We're not doing Internet wars ' we're here to help each others out... I actually accept your point that was made, because well your point is just as important as mine, us being equal.... which is again debatable... URGH i hate TOK soo much debate DUH ahhaa i was trying to say that a FACT is obviously approached differently by different people as far as the DEFINITION is concerned . We as humans when stumbled upon a fact, would always embrace it and consider it to be a fact. but for me a fact is something i have to relate to either something i DEFINITELY know or have experienced in the past. For example, i definitely know that 9/11 happened because i saw the Twin Towers coming down :/ and i took upon the fact that it had something to do with the aeroplanes hitting the towers. But then there comes certain things that would have to be challenged, such as the WTC building 7 collapsing out of nowhere whilst not being struck by an aeroplane.... even though its a fact it did come down... That creates new ways of thinking about the catastrophe. Questions like: what happened to the 4th plane that landed somewhere outside Washington D.C? why were there no bodies of dead humans lying around?? That should indeed come to NEW facts that would be discoveredd, and then the cycle would start to appear, since you would find NEW ways of approaching these facts.... To finally hit the point home, i really think that i have confused myself, maybe i havent, who knows... And the really big thing about natural sciences is that its not based primarily on facts like History, but there are things you can debate about, highly because we make a lot of assumptions when we carry out calculations, such as in Physics. As you said, knowledge can be biased if collectively taken together, and i personally agree with you . Then a question arises if there is common knowledge, like common sense - since the FACT that common sense isnt always common because we are all differently mind orientated. The thing is that im not trying to argue with you, im trying to explain my point, which by the way isnt soo indepth as i thought it would be really hahaha haha I now understand what you were trying to say but still, I repeat, that's really not DIRECTLY important to the title. what is, though, is the way people "see" knowledge and approach it to either leading to new theories or giving a deeper and more coherent details about some other knowledge which is evidenced by a fact. Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunnester_D Posted August 13, 2011 Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 well, I clearly haven't understood the point you made in your first post because I feel that's not what this title is about. If you want to clarify me, I'm all ears as We're not doing Internet wars ' we're here to help each others out... I actually accept your point that was made, because well your point is just as important as mine, us being equal.... which is again debatable... URGH i hate TOK soo much debate DUH ahhaa i was trying to say that a FACT is obviously approached differently by different people as far as the DEFINITION is concerned . We as humans when stumbled upon a fact, would always embrace it and consider it to be a fact. but for me a fact is something i have to relate to either something i DEFINITELY know or have experienced in the past. For example, i definitely know that 9/11 happened because i saw the Twin Towers coming down :/ and i took upon the fact that it had something to do with the aeroplanes hitting the towers. But then there comes certain things that would have to be challenged, such as the WTC building 7 collapsing out of nowhere whilst not being struck by an aeroplane.... even though its a fact it did come down... That creates new ways of thinking about the catastrophe. Questions like: what happened to the 4th plane that landed somewhere outside Washington D.C? why were there no bodies of dead humans lying around?? That should indeed come to NEW facts that would be discoveredd, and then the cycle would start to appear, since you would find NEW ways of approaching these facts.... To finally hit the point home, i really think that i have confused myself, maybe i havent, who knows... And the really big thing about natural sciences is that its not based primarily on facts like History, but there are things you can debate about, highly because we make a lot of assumptions when we carry out calculations, such as in Physics. As you said, knowledge can be biased if collectively taken together, and i personally agree with you . Then a question arises if there is common knowledge, like common sense - since the FACT that common sense isnt always common because we are all differently mind orientated. The thing is that im not trying to argue with you, im trying to explain my point, which by the way isnt soo indepth as i thought it would be really hahaha haha I now understand what you were trying to say but still, I repeat, that's really not DIRECTLY important to the title. what is, though, is the way people "see" knowledge and approach it to either leading to new theories or giving a deeper and more coherent details about some other knowledge which is evidenced by a fact. ahhhhh thats gooodd, because i thought i didnt express my point well enough ) and yes i absolutely agree with what you just said here for a strange reason i find that what you said is a little linked with what i said correct me if im wrong hahaha This has been quite a healthy discussion, and i do appreciate your time to reply to these messages Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Apolo Posted August 13, 2011 Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 It is linked but not directly because you're talking about bias and bias is what leads to either find new ways of thinking or new data but the way you expressed it was a bit dull and plus, it's not really related to TOK even though it has the point, if you know what I mean No problem Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashikaxoxo Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 well i have one natural science as an AOKand i have many examples for why discovering new ways of thinking of what is already knownbut for discovering new facts i dont have any but my question is do we have to take a stand?i think we do, tell me if im wrong.. because we need to formulate counter claims therefore we give both side of the argument and finally take a stand and give counter claims for the opposite argument?! right? Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
anne.antoinette Posted September 3, 2011 Report Share Posted September 3, 2011 aaaaah my teacher read my draft and she basically said she does not like the conclusions I came to x_x She said it feels like I had an idea but then it faded and I came nowhere. And do you have any tips on a 'formal conclusion'? My teacher said that I am to formulate it... Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAKZ_93 Posted September 3, 2011 Report Share Posted September 3, 2011 aaaaah my teacher read my draft and she basically said she does not like the conclusions I came to x_x She said it feels like I had an idea but then it faded and I came nowhere. And do you have any tips on a 'formal conclusion'? My teacher said that I am to formulate it...Well it sounds like your teacher is asking for your view on this and you should use your idea to come to a formal conclusion. Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
anne.antoinette Posted September 3, 2011 Report Share Posted September 3, 2011 aaaaah my teacher read my draft and she basically said she does not like the conclusions I came to x_x She said it feels like I had an idea but then it faded and I came nowhere. And do you have any tips on a 'formal conclusion'? My teacher said that I am to formulate it...Well it sounds like your teacher is asking for your view on this and you should use your idea to come to a formal conclusion.I am having trouble with my view because you can approach this from so many sides... Would it be ok if I wrote that according to me what is more important depends on what kind of person you are aka it could be different for everyone? Or is that wrong and I should just stick to writing that both ways have pros and cons? Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR.AHM Posted September 3, 2011 Report Share Posted September 3, 2011 I didn't read all the comments. But I am sure that no one mentioned this..this is on the side of discovering new methods of thinking: MathematicsBefore Newton and Leibniz founded Calculus. there was another way to find the gradient of graphs but it was very difficult and had lots of steps. But when they found a new approach to solve problem such that. They started to build new facts and data. So what I mean is that if we found new approaches and methods of thinking we can find extra data and facts that will be much efficient and more reliable. Also easy to get them. I have read the biography written by Ingrid Daubachess << not sure of the spellin>>, but she is a wavlet guru in Princeton university. She didn't say my work is to find new facts and problem solve. She said my work is "to invent new approaches to solve them" Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
clau.so Posted September 4, 2011 Report Share Posted September 4, 2011 The most important thing in science is not so much to obtain new facts as to discover new ways of thinking about them. Could anybody -- who could speak English better than me -- help me by explaining the above quote, please? Did Bragg mean both obtaining new facts and discovering new ways of thinking are not important in science, Or did he mean that obtaining new facts are not so important in science, but discovering new ways of thinking are important in science? Sorry, the "as to" confuses me He meant that both are important, but the most important in science is to discover new ways of thinking Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAKZ_93 Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 aaaaah my teacher read my draft and she basically said she does not like the conclusions I came to x_x She said it feels like I had an idea but then it faded and I came nowhere. And do you have any tips on a 'formal conclusion'? My teacher said that I am to formulate it...Well it sounds like your teacher is asking for your view on this and you should use your idea to come to a formal conclusion.I am having trouble with my view because you can approach this from so many sides... Would it be ok if I wrote that according to me what is more important depends on what kind of person you are aka it could be different for everyone? Or is that wrong and I should just stick to writing that both ways have pros and cons?i guess if you have problems with your view then you could briefly discuss a few other points of view e.g. scientist, mathematician etc. Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Achmed-The Dead Terrorist Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 Or maybe add your view here so that we can give you an opinion about it... Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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