Advice for Law Students

[Arrowhead]

Wow, that sounds like an insanely hectic schedule. Scary!

I guess it may seem like that, but when I'm actually living it, it's pretty manageable. Time just whips by and before you know it, term is over.

[Arrowhead]

Hello future lawyers!

This is just a little something I'm sure most of you must be aware of, but for those of you who are like I was before Law school (i.e. clueless), you should know this:

Why do you need a Qualifying Law Degree?

While I have detailed ad nauseum the difference between a solicitor and barrister, anyone who wants to practise Law in England and Wales must have either achieved a Qualifying Law Degree or completed the Conversion Course.

What is a Qualifying Law Degree?

Simply that while you study for your LLB degree, you generally take 12 modules in 3 years. In order to obtain a QLD, 7 of these 12 modules must be the following:

1. Public Law (Constitutional/Administrative)
2. European Union Law (still applies despite Brexit)
3. Property Law (i.e. land law not intellectual property)
4. Trusts and Equity
5. Criminal Law
6. Law of Obligations (Contract, Tort, and Restitution)
7. Procedural Law (or the Law of Evidence)

So you have the freedom to choose 5 more modules of interest to you. (FYI: Most Universities make you take Jurisprudence as a compulsory module in your third year, so really, your options are down to 4).

Can you practice Law in England and Wales without a Qualifying Law Degree in your LLB?

No. You must have a QLD to proceed with a legal career. All Law degrees in the UK require all law students to study all the QLD modules. It is for this reason that non-Law students pursue the Graduate Diploma in Law (GDL) for one year after completing their undergraduate degrees, which covers all the QLD modules.

Do you still need a Qualifying Law Degree if you aren't from England and don't want to settle/practice there indefinitely/want to go back to your home country after your degree?

It depends. You will have to check the Bar Council Authority or equivalent of your home country to see what their stance is on a UK Law education. Are there additional tests you have to give or such? For example, you cannot practice Law in Hong Kong after studying in the UK without a QLD, but you can do so in India (unless you're from specific universities that give questionable qualifications, in which case you have to sit for additional exams). Check in your home country what the rules are with an English Law degree if you plan on eventually returning.

Even if your home country does not require you to have a QLD, still obtain one because when you go back you will be invaluable to any firm because you will have the ability to practice in cross-jurisdictional cases, being qualified in your home country and England and Wales. It's a brilliant advantage to have.

Alright. That's about it for QLDs. I'll post more stuff on here as and when I come across it.

Hope it was useful to some of you.

Cheers,
Arrowhead.

[Award Winning Boss]

Why do you need a Qualifying Law Degree?

While I have detailed ad nauseum the difference between a solicitor and barrister, anyone who wants to practise Law in England and Wales must have either achieved a Qualifying Law Degree or completed the Conversion Course.

Isn't the conversion course a 1 year thing ? how much does that differ from a person that has a degree in law?

Edited December 29, 2011 by Award Winning Boss

[Arrowhead]

Isn't the conversion course a 1 year thing ? how much does that differ from a person that has a degree in law?

Not as much as you would imagine. Most of the stuff you learn at Law school is pretty useless when it comes to practising law. You cover a wide range of topics in Law school, but when you get to work, you end up in a specialised department and focus on that niche part of the law for most of your career because that niche is the one that interests you.

Also you basically cover all 7 modules of a QLD in the one year conversion course (GDL), but they work around it and lump things together i.e. EU Law is subsumed by Public Law; Property and Trusts are turned into half modules of one term each; Obligations is a standalone, Criminal is a standalone, and I think they wiggle out of Evidence but forcefully making you take part in 4 moots a year or some such. Bottom line, you just have to have the 7 modules down on paper. When you start your Training Contract/Pupillage is when your real learning starts. Edited January 2, 2016 by Arrowhead

[Award Winning Boss]

Not as much as you would imagine. Most of the stuff you learn at Law school is pretty much useless when it comes to practising Law. You cover a wide range of topics in Law school, but when you get to work, you end up in a specialise department and focus on that niche part of the law for most of your career because that niche is the one that interests you.

Also you basically cover all 7 modules of a QLD in the one year conversion course (GDL), but they work around it and lump things together i.e. EU Law is subsumed by Public Law; Property and Trusts are turned into half modules of one term each; Obligations is a standalone, Criminal is a standalone, and I think they wiggle out of Evidence but forcefully making you take part in 4 moots a year or some such. Bottom line, you just have to have the 7 modules down on paper. When you start your Training Contract/Pupillage is when your real learning starts.

Ahh ok that makes sense.

How developed would you say your analysis is? This will hopefully make sense, but what I'm trying to get across is; how much of law is analysis in comparison to getting an argument across?

Oh another things, what's the best thing about mooting?

[Arrowhead]

Ahh ok that makes sense.

How developed would you say your analysis is? This will hopefully make sense, but what I'm trying to get across is; how much of law is analysis in comparison to getting an argument across?

Analysis is what you're expected to do for Law school essays. Challenge existing authorities, analyse case law, come up with your own interpretations. Actual practise involves that to a very small extent. It's mostly drafting briefs, giving advice (which is more written work), correcting contracts (literally with a red pen), and reading loads of reports. Analysis into it is very little once you figure out the technique in the first few years of how to go about this.

This breakdown of workload is the same for Solicitors and Barristers. Barristers have the added element of appearing in court/ADR settlements, which has a performance element if you will. But it's mostly reading and drafting. However, analysis is ever-present, you just do it so often that you barely notice it anymore.

Oh another things, what's the best thing about mooting?

It's FUN!!!

You get to diplomatically argue and sound very smart while doing so using as many big words as you can possibly muster in every sentence. There's a strong research element to it, some writing, but it all comes down to Style and Presentation. Like debates, only with Law.

It's like screaming before every round and fighting like a bloodthirsty carnivorous animal especially when the law (and odds) are against you.

[Gaby]

Oh another things, what's the best thing about mooting?

Oj, can't you do some high school level mooting? I know it's probably nothing compared to the university level mooting, but for the time being... I did some mooting last year and I seriously loved it. It was US court mooting but still. One of the most fun things I've ever done but I have to admit, I put quite some work into it, but it really paid off.

[Award Winning Boss]

Oj, can't you do some high school level mooting? I know it's probably nothing compared to the university level mooting, but for the time being... I did some mooting last year and I seriously loved it. It was US court mooting but still. One of the most fun things I've ever done but I have to admit, I put quite some work into it, but it really paid off.

You've revealed my identity

Erm no, the closest i have is regular debating and MUN (which is boring now)

[Arrowhead]

Hello future lawyers!

The following is something that you all should be aware of coming into the legal sector in the foreseeable future. This also makes excellent interview material for law firms and universities, etc.

The effect of the Legal Services Act 2007 latest provisions being enacted, something of great purport and we are yet to see how this changes the ball game.

Have a look at this! and come back and post any thoughts you might have, it's a great conversation point.

Cheers,

Arrowhead.

[Guest azntastic]

Arrowhead you're amazing

To what level or proficiency should I be at with a language in order to put it down?

I've spoken cantonese (Hong Kong Chinese) since i was little so I am fluent, but mandarin I've only spoken for 6-7 years. I know how to read most chinese characters, but not enough. I did get a 5 on AP Chinese, and an 800 on the SAT Chinese - would that prove that I'm fluent?

Thanks ^^

[Arrowhead]

Arrowhead you're amazing

To what level or proficiency should I be at with a language in order to put it down?

I've spoken cantonese (Hong Kong Chinese) since i was little so I am fluent, but mandarin I've only spoken for 6-7 years. I know how to read most chinese characters, but not enough. I did get a 5 on AP Chinese, and an 800 on the SAT Chinese - would that prove that I'm fluent?

Thanks ^^

I'm pretty sure that's more than enough to prove your fluency in Chinese. You should have nothing to worry about in that department.

[Gaby]

Ok, so while I was doing some preliminary work for the moot court, I started thinking:

Say, a person finishes Law school, get a training contract and becomes a solicitor in some nice, good law firm. Is it possible that this person will never set their foot in the courtroom?

[Arrowhead]

Ok, so while I was doing some preliminary work for the moot court, I started thinking:

Say, a person finishes Law school, get a training contract and becomes a solicitor in some nice, good law firm. Is it possible that this person will never set their foot in the courtroom?

It depends on which area of law you're involved in. So say you get into Corporate Mergers and Acquisitions or Finance and Capital Markets or Equity Bonds, then no, you probably will never step into a courtroom for the rest of your career. However, if you get into say Litigation and Dispute Resolution, then going to court will be staple for you or attending ADR settlements. But you won't be involved in court as you perform in moots, that's the work of Barristers not solicitors, you will be there to provide details and make a cohesive team.

[Arrowhead]

An opportunity for first-years, something to keep in mind as soon as you step into Law School and stay two steps ahead of the game.

Simmons & Simmons is what’s known as a 'silver circle' City law firm. That means it’s among the clear rivals to the top five UK solicitors’ firms in terms of revenues and is known for its top drawer work. Its turnover is £251 million per year.

What it has in common with the majority of commercial law firms is the need to cover all main business areas yet be particularly reputable in certain niches, and it has done so by specialising in the following key areas:

• energy and infrastructure
  
• financial institutions
  
• life sciences
  
• technology
  
• media
  
• telecommunications.
  

In terms of services, it’s said to have one of the largest, full-service dispute resolution practices of any City firm. It’s also strong in law surrounding financial markets, corporate, IP, communications and technology, EU, employment, pensions and employee benefits, corporate tax, and competition and regulatory.

Its client list represents the strengths of the firm and includes:

• Commercial Bank of Qatar, JP Morgan, Deutsche Bank, RBS, HSBC, Bank of America, Threadneedle, Tokyo Stock Exchange, Aon Consulting.
  
• MOD, The Home Office, Department of Health, Cabinet Office, Civil Aviation Authority.
  
• Teléfonica Europe, China Mobile, Google.
  
• BP, GlaxoSmithKline, BP, Oman Power and Water Procurement Company, Electric Authority Cyprus.
  

The following is of particular significance to you guys and is taken from their website.

This is the driving idea behind our vacation schemes. We run the following schemes across the year:

• three-day winter insight workshops for final year non-law students and non-law graduates
  
• a week-long spring vacation scheme for first-year law students and penultimate-year non-law students; and
  
• two-week summer vacation schemes aimed at candidates looking to secure a full training contract two years later.
  

These structured schemes mean we can take a closer look at you, and you can see for yourself whether life at Simmons & Simmons will suit you. There are only 80 places available, so if you’re interested, make sure to apply as soon as possible.

There are many other firms that have workshops and activities geared towards first-years. For those of you seriously considering a future as a solicitor, one of these would be invaluable, give you a great experience at a top firm as soon as you set foot into Law school, and you will hold a major advantage over your peers by having a direct 'in' into a top City law firm.

Cheers,

Arrowhead.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Arrowhead

[Survival_Therapy]

This is fantastic!

Do you think you could advise me about the different kinds of law? Like do you find criminal law interesting because I've heard it is so. And they say law school readings are crazy long, what's your opinion?

Survival_Therapy.

[Survival_Therapy]

Hey Arrowhead, mind taking a look at a first draft of a PS for me?

Arrowhead isn't on the website anymore. But you can get in touch with him via TSR. I had him go through my PS as well, and asked him questions about studying law in general.

[Arrowhead]

Hey!

So I was gone for a few months, but my exams ended a little over a week ago and now I have the summer to look forward to with little to do until my internships start. Ergo, I'm back here to waste some time and maybe help someone along the way.

Anyway, seeing as this was a thread I started to help people applying to Law school, I thought I might as well resurrect it.

So for those of you future lawyers out there, preparing for interviews and what-not, if you're looking for some interesting legal material to talk about which is very much in the here and now, I suggest you have a look at some of the work by Lawrence Lessig, the father of the Creative Commons movement, related to intellectual property, it's very topical and controversial.

One of Lessig's articles was one of the most interesting and captivating articles I've read at Law school, ever. I thought I might share it with you guys. There' also other stuff I've attached including the Fischer article which is an introduction to Intellectual Property.

The von Busch and Palmas article I wouldn't read if I didn't have time. It is long as hell, but very, very interesting. Be warned though, it's not an easy read and most of the complexities of their discussion on Digital Criminal Law and the justifications of hacking might be too much for you seeing as you don't know the law in context.

The Kumm article is to showcase one of the biggest issues regarding the authority of EU law on its member-states, very important for you to know if you plan on applying to the UK or anywhere in Europe for Law anytime soon. Read it slowly though. The Hazel Fox article is on jurisdictional immunities, I only added it in because it's a total human rights-based article in that we should set aside years and years of international legal practice and begin to hold states, governments, presidents and important state officials criminally and civilly liable when they commit grave human rights violations such as war crimes, crimes against humanity, genocide, ethnic cleansing, etc. Fox sets this in context, explains why legally this is such a difficult thing to obtain, and then suggests solutions to overcome it. I wouldn't read it off the bat though, it is a very dry and very technical article

But this stuff is worth having a glance over, especially if you're seriously considering Law school because this is the kind of good stuff you have to look forward to reading to for the next few years and years to come.

Cheers!

Arrowhead.

[Tony Stark]

I dunno if anyone else is having this problem, but I'm getting a 404 not found error with those articles, Arrowhead.

[Arrowhead]

I dunno if anyone else is having this problem, but I'm getting a 404 not found error with those articles, Arrowhead.

That's really odd. I'll try to upload them again then.

If that doesn't work, I've also uploaded them onto the Files section of the website, so if you can access that, you can download it from here.

[Arrowhead]

Hey everyone!

This is a work experience opportunity that you guys are eligible for. It is at Matrix Chambers, which is one of the top leading Silks in the country and the world. Their offices are in London.

They run a traineeship for GCSE and A-Level students. I strongly encourage you to apply if you're interested in a career in Law, especially a university education in the UK or anywhere else. This will be the unimaginably brilliant boost to your application because anyone who is someone knows what Matrix Chambers is in the legal community.

Here is the link, have a look through. I've mentioned tons of times that any kind of work experience would benefit your Law application, this is the best kind there is and every university you apply to, including Oxbridge, I guarantee will sit up and pay attention when they see you've had work experience at Matrix Chambers.

It's highly competitive (obviously), but I encourage you to browse through it. Applications have closed for this year, but there's always next year. Even if you're too late to apply for your current university applications, having done a work experience here will remain on your CV throughout your university education.

Best of luck!

Arrowhead.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Arrowhead