Jonathan Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 First id like to thank you for spending time reading this and try to help me out. i really appreciate it. =]My EE is on maths, about game theory. But here is the thing, ive read some old thread on IB forums and people have said since there are so many topics you can talk about in Maths you cant really expect the marker to know everything about you topic. So im facing a dilemma right now. Should my EE be like a 4000 words introduction of Game Theory for like beginners or people who know nothing (or not much) about game theory? or should i do like a specific game theoretical analysis on a game? (i can use some suggestions which game i should do as well)and by the way, Ive read a sample EE which is about game theory as well. I understand the whole basic idea of game theory and have a brief (i do mean brief) idea of what it is and how it works. But when i was reading his paper, the equations and the special "math language", i was just like ............ what the hell is that? I'm just wondering if thats a normal situation. =]THANKS SO MUCH FOR HELPING Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBSQUARED Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Wow, interesting topic! I don't think your entire essay should be an introduction to game theory either though. Of course you should introduce the terminology/basics of Game Theory (using math in strategic situations in which an individual's success in making choices depends on the choices of others) but I agree with avrila in the sense that you should focus on a type of 'game'. Some example you could focus on are:- applications in Economics/Business- cooperative/non-cooperative- symmetric/asymmetric- zero sum/non-zero sum- simultaneous/sequentialFor a start, try looking up the Nash equilibrium as a cooperative vs non cooperative game theory. Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
deissi Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 The Mathematics EE should under no circumstances be a surface skimming introduction to a theory. You should do a specific analysis on a game. However, you'll really need those special equations and stuff, you have to go beyond the HL Math syllabus for a good grade. This means you really have to be prepared to put in effort and study about game theory.I don't suggest you (at least thoroughly) discuss applications in different disciplines like economics, as the problem with this is that the examiner wants to read a math essay, not an economics essay. Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aether Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Never ever fear that, if the evaluator is not familiar with the topic, it is his responsability to inform himself, not yours. So just make sure to add good explanations in the introduction and I think you will do fine Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Posted February 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 a friend of mine who knows quite a bit about game theory but nothing about IB or EE, gave me some advice."If you are in high school, I would recommend you take a few *simple* games and use them to illustrate why game theory is NOT a good descriptive model of human behavior, and speculate some of the fixes. Look up the p-beauty contest, prisoner's dilemma (classic, everyone knows this one), the centipede game and the ultimatum game. These should be enough to last u a while. All of these games are studied extensively in the experimental literature (the game theory of them is trivial .. you should be able to figure out the equilibria by just thinking) and good examples of when game theory predictions are wrong."Would it be alright if i follow his advice to take a few simple games and say its NOT a good way to model human behavior. I quite like his idea since many people (include myself) thinks that game theory is the perfect method to model everything include human behavior, so that it would not be "just another EE" and be a bit different to others' EE. what do you think?thanks again =] Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
deissi Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 It's not suitable for Math, you could SOMEHOW do it in Economics (tho you'd use different games). For Math it really needs to be a problem you're solving, not just looking at a few games that can be found in the average university textbook. Also, with the IB, you don't want your EE to be different. I'm sorry to say this, but the criteria just don't allow for anything but the 'standard' EE. Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragoneye776 Posted February 7, 2009 Report Share Posted February 7, 2009 It's not suitable for Math, you could SOMEHOW do it in Economics (tho you'd use different games). For Math it really needs to be a problem you're solving, not just looking at a few games that can be found in the average university textbook. Also, with the IB, you don't want your EE to be different. I'm sorry to say this, but the criteria just don't allow for anything but the 'standard' EE.I wrote my practice EE on Game Theory. If you need some ideas just PM me. I was at a loss of what to do here as well. I think I went into a bit of history, introduction, breast for tat, a slightly deeper model, but then the majority was discussing its real world applications in politics and war and etc. Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Posted March 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 (edited) ive come up with an outline of my EE. can anyone please check for it if its too simple or the focus is not narrow enough etc.? thanks heaps.Title of the essay:A game theoretical anaylsis of Prisoner's Dilemma, a non-zero sum game with imperfect information.Research Question:What would be optimal strategy and outcome for the Prisoner’s Dilemma game if it is played once or repeatedly? And what would be changed if communication is allowed between the players?Outline of the main points in the development of the essay:- What is Game Theory? (Brief Introduction) o Normal Form (simultaneous game), Symmetric Game- Prisoner Dilemma o Explain the game o List of strategies available, expected payoff for each strategy o Optimal Strategy if it is played once • Minimax theorem o Optimal Strategy if it is played repeatedly • breast-for-tat • Nash Equilibrium o Effect of communication in a repeated game- Real Life Application Edited March 2, 2009 by Jonathan Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarz Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 This is not math. The only way you can do game theory is if you focus on a specific mathematical aspect of it. Your outline seems very much like a shallow summary of what's been written thousands of times. You need a detailed analysis of something specific. Right now it's the same as writing an EE in history ans saying "I want to talk about WW2" "Is it ok if I just discuss a few battles?" That's not an EE. In history you'd at least have to connect these battles in a meaningful way to prove something about the commanders. In math I guess you'd have to connect the games with a mathematical concept that proves something meaningful about game theory. Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinuxBeta Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 I agree with Tarz. What is your point exactly? Why is your EE worth reading? These are things you'd have to include in your abstract. If an examiner doesn't have the background, they could always read up on it. Also, when choosing a topic, take a look at the EE book and see if you cover all the criteria. Also, talk to your advisor- if they have advised EEs in the past, they'll tell you how to change it. Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Posted March 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 (edited) okay so now im back to square one. lets start all over again.Mathematics --> Game Theory --> Non Cooperative Game --> Extensive Form --> Zero-sum game --> Kuhn Poker (possibly?)Topic: A Game theoretic analysis of Kuhn Pokerthen im stuck on my research question. What aspect of the game should i study to make my essay "worth reading"?can someone PLEASE narrow it down for me? i know i sound stupid or annoying or both . But im really struggling to narrow it down without an extensive amount of knowledge on game theory. Thanks again.your help is greatly appreciated.ps. our school is new to IB so my supervisor has never marked/advised EE in the past. and He does not know about game theory, so asking my supervisor how to change my topic seems to be an unlikely option. Edited March 9, 2009 by Jonathan Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
deissi Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Hi,again, you're looking at a narrative topic. In your EE, you should not present an old game or its application. Ideally, instead, you would find a game of your own and apply the theory to it. If the game isn't original, it's bound to be too narrative. I know this is discouraging, but the Math EE really is difficult exactly because of this. Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Posted March 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Hi,again, you're looking at a narrative topic. In your EE, you should not present an old game or its application. Ideally, instead, you would find a game of your own and apply the theory to it. If the game isn't original, it's bound to be too narrative. I know this is discouraging, but the Math EE really is difficult exactly because of this.yeah now i realised Maths isn't such a good choice unfortunately i can't change it anymore =Sso you are suggesting me to make up a game of my own? and if i want to stick with poker, what can i talk about it other than optimal betting size because i read a past EE article did an analysis on simplified poker as well and he not only calculate the optimal stragtegy but also the optimal betting size in certain curcumstances.thanks again. Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
deissi Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Yes, this is essentially what I am suggesting. You can also apply a conventional game to another (new) situation by modifying it somehow. Here, you would obviously discuss the changes required and the limitations of the model etc. Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarz Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 and if i want to stick with poker, what can i talk about it other than optimal betting size because i read a past EE article did an analysis on simplified poker as well and he not only calculate the optimal stragtegy but also the optimal betting size in certain curcumstances.thanks again.I think optimal betting size is plenty. Poker game theory is pretty complicated to begin with. Just calculating the chances of winning is hard enough. It's been done though, so it's not the most original topic. However, for this reason it will be easier to do. I bet you can find a lot on the internet about poker probability. It's a safe topic. You don't have to come up with something entirely original to begin with. It would help though if you introduce something somewhat new, for example the chance that the other player will read your face and how the introduction of this affects the strategy. In fact, now that I think about it, it could make up a good portion of your EE. haha another thing I just though of is "the effects of alcohol on poker game theory". Introduce a chance, because of alcohol that players will be playing with less foresight and imagining larger chances of winning. Another topic would be analyzing different strategies - ago, conservative, beginner (random), expert face reader, etc. Man, this essay sounds really fun. Too bad I already wrote mine Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Posted March 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 I think optimal betting size is plenty. Poker game theory is pretty complicated to begin with. Just calculating the chances of winning is hard enough. It's been done though, so it's not the most original topic. However, for this reason it will be easier to do. I bet you can find a lot on the internet about poker probability. It's a safe topic. You don't have to come up with something entirely original to begin with. It would help though if you introduce something somewhat new, for example the chance that the other player will read your face and how the introduction of this affects the strategy. In fact, now that I think about it, it could make up a good portion of your EE. haha another thing I just though of is "the effects of alcohol on poker game theory". Introduce a chance, because of alcohol that players will be playing with less foresight and imagining larger chances of winning. Another topic would be analyzing different strategies - ago, conservative, beginner (random), expert face reader, etc. Man, this essay sounds really fun. Too bad I already wrote mine the facial expression and the alcohol one sounds really interesting. so do i just whack an extra probability to my calculation? Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
deissi Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 How will you obtain the data required for it? Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Posted March 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 argh that wouldn't work would it. =S Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
saraholivia Posted May 19, 2021 Report Share Posted May 19, 2021 On 2/8/2009 at 6:28 AM, dragoneye776 said: I wrote my practice EE on Game Theory. If you need some ideas just PM me. I was at a loss of what to do here as well. I think I went into a bit of history, introduction, breast for tat, a slightly deeper model, but then the majority was discussing its real world applications in politics and war and etc. May I take a look? Do you have any links? It would really be helpful especially that I am planning on doing my EE on game theory.. Thank you! Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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