"Soft" subjects to avoid, according to universities

[Vvi]

IB is hard, we all know it, and there's always the temptation to take subjects where it's easier to get a 7. I just base my switching of History HL to SL on that.

However, there are some subjects in the IB (and also A-Levels that aren't relevant to us) that are considered "soft" and as a result, universities like Cambridge and LSE have openly spelled out their attitudes towards them (not positive). Other selective universities do not accept them either.

This is the list of "soft" subjects that aren't recognized the same way as other IB subjects, according to http://timesonline.typepad.com/schoolgate/...a-level-s.html:

• Business and Management

• Design and Technology

• Information Technology in a Global Society

• Theatre Arts

• Visual Arts

These are links to specific criteria given by Cambridge (http://www.cam.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/requirements/index.html#matriculatio) and LSE (http://www.lse.ac.uk/resources/undergraduateProspectus2009/howToApply.htm) on the subjects that they accept and don't accept.

This isn't to say that you WON'T get accepted by universities if you have one of these courses. For A-Level students, they still consider you if you have 2 subjects that are "traditionally" academic and one that isn't. However, maybe if you have 2 or 3 of these IB subjects for your diploma it might not necessarily be the best thing.

I'm not trying to be discouraging, just though I would share this thread so that people, especially those starting IB1, are aware of the possible consequences of their choices.

What do you think of this list, and is it fair that these subjects don't receive equal recognition?

Personally, I don't take any of them. DT in my school is a big joke, the teacher makes them do no projects and for the exams it's just repetition of definitions (which according to the students that take DT is "soooo hard".) Not to be mean, but everyone in that class is part of the "non-academic group" that either has no future career plans or just doesn't want to "study hard" in Biology (these are real quotes).

Our school doesn't offer any of the other subjects except Visual Arts, which is obviously relevant if you want to study it in university. However, I have a friend applying to Oxford Medicine who takes art and I don't see why she takes it instead of Economics. Art does have a lot of coursework, and so I think it's unfair that people who put so much personal effort in get less recognition.

Friends elsewhere in the world who took the IT class mentioned also said that they did little work, and spent most of their time playing games on the computer. They took it for the "easy" 7 as well.

Business and Management has a similar parallel, Economics, so if you are thinking of studying B&M the Economics course would be the stronger option, with the added benefit that the syllabus is one of the few in high schools that includes an emphasis on development economics. Useful for International Relations, Development Studies, etc.

[__inthemaking]

None of those were even offered at my school, so I couldn't have taken them if I wanted to.

From what I've heard, ITGS is the easiest IB course there is, followed by B&M. But if you're planning to go into fine arts, obviously you should take visual arts over something like chemistry.

The majority of my class wanted to go into life sciences, engineering and commerce. The life sciences people all took bio and chem, engineers took chem and physics and commerce took economics.

We didn't get much choice. We only got to choose between history or economics and bio or physics.

[KLSmash]

Our school offers Information Technology in a Global Society and Visual Arts out of those, and we have two people taking Visual Arts (out of about like 150 kids in the Year 1 DP Program). This is our first year offering ITGS, and the teacher teaching it said that it is an easy 7. So there's 3 classes of it (two this year, one next year; I have it next year) so we'll see. But from what I have seen of the ITGS exams, they are extremely easy and I bet I could probably get at least a 4 or 5 without even studying any of the course. It's a lot of basic computer/IT knowledge (in my case).

[FahaD]

I know these subjects are 'soft', but if your majoring in something relevant like computer science or business shouldn't you take ITGS/Business and management with

another 'challenging" subject like economics or history (both at higher level)?

[Vvi]

Yes of course, in those cases you should definitely take whatever is most relevant to what you want to study in university.

However, I was referring to the cases where people think "I need to get the highest score possible for Oxford, let me take Drama, ITGS and DT so I can get 3 automatic 7's". Especially if you apply to medicine, it just won't work our for you.

But don't take a combination of the hardest IB subjects unless absolutely necessary. Last year, many graduates from my school had Chem HL, English HL, Physics HL and Math HL. They are some of the hardest subjects to get 7's in, and so even though these people wee incredibly smart, they only averaged about 34 points. They were lucky since they applied to the US, which looks more at SAT scores.

For the UK, those grades wouldn't have been good enough for the top unis. They don't look at whether or not you had 4 HL's, it's your total that counts. Of course you have a better chance with only 3 HL's. The US does look at HL numbers, since you get credits for university with them. The UK does give some, but rarely since you specialize automatically the first year there.

[Forester]

But don't take a combination of the hardest IB subjects unless absolutely necessary. what about following your passions? and not just university entrance?

[Vvi]

Life's full of choices

Hard to decide, I know. I guess it's easier if you don't mind what college you go to, just as long as you're studying what you love. However, if you really want to go to Oxford and only get a 30 coz you have 4 HL's or just really hard subjects, I don't know if that'll work out. People in my school never get more than 5 for HL Math. And yet they wanna study Math at Cambridge.

[Aquarius]

I believe they just advise students to avoid 2 of the 5 blacklists at HL. My school does not offer Economics due to low demand (tbh, only I demand it!), therefore B&M MUST be a substitute in order to apply for Economics in Cambridge!

[TeeBlake]

our school offers the last three courses listed...

yeah i heard a lot of "easy" comments from ITGS....but somehow..people tend to choose geo over history...(they made a mistake, in geo...you'll be upto eyeballs with geo hw in two weeks)...only three people took ITGS...out of like...80 people...

[Aquarius]

Actually you can get into Economics at Cambridge without taking B&M or Economics. You are not at a disadvantage if have neither. But you MUST have Math HL, and in your personal statement/interview convince Cambridge that you are the right person for economics, so you write about things like that you read the Economist regularly or you had work experience at a business company etc.

Are you sure about it, Mark?

If you are, then I would be most grateful. Considering I have done AS Business Studies and Economics already, I found B&M is so boring and demotivating. Therefore I am thinking to switch into History HL at the moment (I've done AS Govt & Politics as well). The reason why is obvious, my 3 HL contain 2 soft subjects: English B and B&M (My school does not let students do A2 language, therefore I had to choose English B although universities don't really respect it that much!

[appleme]

VISUAL ARTS?

That's a soft subject?? I do higher math, higher english and its easily the hardest subject I do! The work you put into should make it the most valued by universities!

[IBdoc]

I take Bio HL, Chem HL, French HL and ITGS HL with english and math standard level. I'm planning on studying medecine, so should I be worried abt taking ITGS? For me it is not a useless course since computers are the future of the world. And according to IB statistics, ITGS is one of the hardest subjects to score in... ONLY 2 or 3% get a 7 every year on it. So most of you are wrong about it so don't take it if you want an "easy" 7.

[Vvi]

I take Bio HL, Chem HL, French HL and ITGS HL with english and math standard level. I'm planning on studying medecine, so should I be worried abt taking ITGS? For me it is not a useless course since computers are the future of the world. And according to IB statistics, ITGS is one of the hardest subjects to score in... ONLY 2 or 3% get a 7 every year on it. So most of you are wrong about it so don't take it if you want an "easy" 7.

Bio and Chem HL I understand for medicine, but why do you have French in there? I would think that English would be a better option, since medical terminology is quite complicated and HL English would demonstrate your capability to cope with it more than adequately.

According to comments I read on www.thestudentroom.co.uk, other students also say that ITGS HL is hard to get a 7 in. Most people had 5's last year.

According to Wikipedia, "The students must be able to state how a technology functions, its use, and how it impacts the world. However, ITGS is considered more to be a social science than a computer science course. This is because IT systems form the core of the students knowledge for the course, but the focus is on how these systems change culture and society." For the reason in bold, I think this is why universities see it as soft. Personally, I didn't take the course when it was offered because it mostly relates to computer theory, and not enough to practical applications.

VISUAL ARTS?

That's a soft subject?? I do higher math, higher english and its easily the hardest subject I do! The work you put into should make it the most valued by universities!

I do agree, but I think that the universities that view it as "soft" are very traditionally academic ones like St. Andrews, Oxbridge, etc. Few of those old universities seem to offer courses in the Arts, so perhaps this is why. Oxford does offer Fine Art as a course specifically for those aiming to become artists. I suppose that they only view it negatively if you apply for theology/medicine, for example, as having Art there doesn't seem to make any sense in terms of what your future career would be. In that case, they may label you as "lazy". Sorry about the negative stereotypes associated with artists, at least in my school the non-academic people take it and they're not even very good at drawing. They just don't want to read any extra books.

Edited September 21, 2008 by Vvi

[IBdoc]

Bio and Chem HL I understand for medicine, but why do you have French in there? I would think that English would be a better option, since medical terminology is quite complicated and HL English would demonstrate your capability to cope with it more than adequately.

According to comments I read on www.thestudentroom.co.uk, other students also say that ITGS HL is hard to get a 7 in. Most people had 5's last year.

According to Wikipedia, "The students must be able to state how a technology functions, its use, and how it impacts the world. However, ITGS is considered more to be a social science than a computer science course. This is because IT systems form the core of the students knowledge for the course, but the focus is on how these systems change culture and society." For the reason in bold, I think this is why universities see it as soft. Personally, I didn't take the course when it was offered because it mostly relates to computer theory, and not enough to practical applications.

French is in there because I transfered from the French Bac to IB and I have been french educated all my life until now. French B is quite easy for me unlike English A1 so there is no way I'm taking it at higher level.

I heard that universities don't really care about your group 3 subject as long as you're taking the courses they need for medicine (which are Bio HL, Chem HL and Math at least SL). Plus, I know a lot of IB students who got into pre-med with my combination of couses... So I don't think it should be a problem.

[appleme]

Hmmm... I agree with the 'not so academic' people tending to take Visual Arts... the average grade for it always tends to be a bit low, but what about the serious ones who actually take it with the aim of getting a seven or six? Should we be penalised for the reputation? You definitely need to read books if you're serious about it, and visit galleries etc. , and work extremely hard. Hardly for 'lazy' people

Sorry for the rant, but Im applying to Oxbridge and LSE and it really bugs me that they think like they do.

[Aquarius]

Yeah, i'm sure. I just went onto the website of Cambridge uni, it says:

''Economics course requirements

Given the increasingly technical nature of economic theory, it is now essential that applicants have A level Mathematics (or equivalent). Further Mathematics is considered useful by Christ's, Churchill, Corpus Christi, Downing, Newnham, Gonville and Caius, Magdalene, Queens', and St John's Colleges. Economics is seen as useful preparation by all Colleges but it is not essential. A level Business Studies can be helpful if you are unable to take Economics.''

So basically the equivalent of A level Math is required which is Math HL at IB, and Business studies or similar are recommended, not required. But as I said before, your capability for taking Economics at Cambridge can be expressed in other ways, such as reading the Economist (since they will interview you, you might as well read it for real), work experiences at businesses/commerce centers or anything of the equivalanet. And if that's not enough, google personal statements for Economics, or just have it here http://www.studential.com/personalstatemen...rse.asp?type=17 and read what the perfect economics applicants wrote (only read the ones that got an offer from oxford/lse, since that is the cambridge level when it comes to economics majors) and do some crazy economics things to be prepared for Cambridge admissions

Good luck!

I also want to take economics at a marvelous university, but since I took Math SL (and still see no clear reason why, in practise, this would put me at a disadvantage), so my top target is one of the great US universities which pretty much don't care about my IB subjects. But I will apply for the UK just to make sure I get as many offers as possible =)

Thank you for a very detailed answer.

I should come back and seek for some further advice from you seriously.

Once again, I really appreciate your help!

[Solaris]

I would add Environmental Systems and Societies.

Environmental Systems and Societies is good subject. Taking it as the only 'experimental science' subject is considered as a 'soft' option and they do not even count it as a science subject.

[Vvi]

Good point, I also read this somewhere. If you really want to take environmental studies, take biology. It's looked upon as being traditional, since there's so many more varied aspects that are covered and so it provides a better range of knowledge.

[Stereoisomer]

our school offers all of them..

BAM lol

is the most popular choice along with visual arts.. loads of people are taking them..

[Vasundhra]

But don't take a combination of the hardest IB subjects unless absolutely necessary. what about following your passions? and not just university entrance?

sooo true....look at what i'm stuck with....